| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3] > | On indecency and morality Initiator des Themas: Jean-Luc Dumont
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lien
Niederlande
Local time: 18:47
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
| Mixing things | Jan 19, 2004 |
Paul Roigé wrote:
One can also say, well, I don't really want to offend people, makes me feel bad so I'll tone it down. It's not such a great deal, but it does help to make communication more fluent. That's the big problem with F*** and soundalikes, that tense moment of silence and doubt that may follow (it implies anger, unease, frustration, ...). Better make sure you know who you're talking with if you really need to use it.
Incidentally, we are all linguists here. We are expected to own a wealth of vocabulary... and to use it too!
I think you are mixing two things here. The questions on the site have nothing to do with the way we express ourselves in the "world outside". It is about to translate them, when you come across them in a translation. Being mostly slang words,they are very specific to the country and you do not learn them at school.
The questions are not asked to shock people, but by necessity to do a work.
| | | | Henk Peelen 
Niederlande
Local time: 18:47
Mitglied (2003)
Deutsch > Niederländisch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | THE WAY WE ARE BORN IS NOT INDECENT | Jan 19, 2004 |
The way we are born is not indecent, neither are preceding “acts” and “processes” needed to bring forth new life and following “acts” and “processes” to provide for and protect new life.
I wholeheartedly disagree with you in your first sentence “The way we are born is indecent ...”. I’m afraid you
1..distort the view on decency and indecency
2..could “hurt” the wrong (i.e. the right ones instead of the wrong ones) people, resulting in false mode... See more The way we are born is not indecent, neither are preceding “acts” and “processes” needed to bring forth new life and following “acts” and “processes” to provide for and protect new life.
I wholeheartedly disagree with you in your first sentence “The way we are born is indecent ...”. I’m afraid you
1..distort the view on decency and indecency
2..could “hurt” the wrong (i.e. the right ones instead of the wrong ones) people, resulting in false modesty and rudeness (which are very often related).
The whole thing is about “medical” versus “pleasure” / “sexual satisfaction” / obscene language / incedent exposure (irrespective of the method).
As to the Vatican, I (being a right wing non-catholic believer) think the whole thing is mainly about seperation of “church” and “state”. In my opinion, the role, power and wealth of the church (or any religious institute) should predominantly be a spiritual one: inspiring and uniting people by an as rightly and clearly as possible explanation, preservation and practising of its source(s) and heritage, not in “automatical” power gained through the ages by (perhaps in itself more or less good and successfull) worldly power and gifts.
Arms both cost and (I hope more) save lives, shares in a medicine factory could be more preferable, but selling the shares and use the money and time to inspire the members to increase AWARENESS of and contribute to the spiritual heritage, practice and task of the church might be more daring and fruitfull for both church and members. A lot of people at the same time are overfed, becoming bored, and complain about the gap between church and members.
I think, there is quite a direct relation between not distinguishing between serious things like giving birth to new live on the one hand and incident exposure and (wilful) rudeness AND (ON CIVIL LEVEL ILLEGAL) USE OF WEAPONS. So, let’s at least force the Vatican to review its policy by trying to drop the civil use of weapons.
I mean, carefull behaviour has “spin off”, but rudeness as well. I know very well there’s a big danger to simplify things, but constantly being aware of this (i.e. the spreading effect of your behaviour) bears fruit sooner or later. I think every institute does in first instance right when trying to prevent the improper/figurative use of words, if this could give these words an indecent meaning, by trying to banish the use of these words and to “disarm” them. Fortunately I don’t very often have to take the hoary old “drop dead”, but if so, I like to reply with “listen, I’m sure I’ll do so some day, but not now if you don’t mind”. This might very well disarm the speaker and open the way to explain the speaker (s)he could very well hurt somebody with his/here words AND opening for him /her a way to really declear his / her intentions and / or grievance. In my opinion transitive rude expressions are just as bad as reflective ones. I think especially “if I’m wrong, I’m a Dutchmen” is unbelievable hurting due to the unbearable idea a Dutchman could be wrong. As far as I’m right informed, people are increasingly using rude words and at the same time decreasingly able to express their real meaning, joy, grievance, sorrow or whatever. Empty vessels make the most noise: appearantly more noise makes the vessels emptier, which makes them producing more noise, which makes them .....
It would be a pitty being forced to conclude that the efforts in noise suppression of audio equipment are fully a wast of time because sound is nothing else than noise. Colourless noise might be worser than white noise. As to acoustic / virgin noise, I had expected Britney Spears being able to decrease the use of “fuck you” in favor of “suck you”. Sounds less rude, annoying and more emancipatory.
I think it should be good to avoid the improper / figurative use of words relating to reproduction, illnesses, metabolism and unhappy and unclear relations with God. I hope I’m not the monkey of Proz when I say that a pond of real and clear motivations / meanings are far more interesting than an ocean filled of twaddle.
DECENCY IN ITSELF IS NOT A VICTORIAN STANDARD. Decency is as old as the world, has not only to do with the widespread stages of sexual reproduction and the collateral need to prevent what is considered indecent exposure, and needs to be considered and perhaps (re)formulated “constantly”.
I’m sorry JLDSF, but I’m afraid you miss the point fully. I suggest you purify your bookshelf by selecting on the intention of word use, not on the word use itself. The key of translation is AWARENESS OF CONTEXT, not of words only. Translating is not like a kind of passive pipeline or an passive electrical transformer, transporting and / or transforming something without any awareness.
I suggest Proz doesn’t introduce a
This question might be considered offensive
“zone” but instead insists the users not to use words / conceptions in an improper / figurative sense, in cases this could be considered obscene or rude (so meaningfull and non-commercial) AND to provide the text as much as possible in the appropriate language (both Kudoz, the general (English) and the Albanian, Arabic, Bosnian, ....Turkish, Ukrainian forums) with sufficient context. People who don’t like this could **** off (sorry I mean move to) or being sucked in by (is more emancipatory) more liberal sites.
This way every Proz page is open and clear for every user, so the Proz mission could sound “helping communicating people helping people communicating”.
Let your yes be yes, your no no and your fuck fuck, in the right meaning, to the right people at the right moment, and you'll never need stars to hide your meaning / acts, or even worser, the truth resulting from your meaning / acts.
[Edited at 2004-01-19 19:06] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jean-Luc Dumont
Frankreich
Local time: 18:47
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | Dear Dutchman | Jan 19, 2004 |
You sure sound noisy to me, but before flying on your "right wing"... to the wrong conclusions you should have read my post more carefully. If I missed a point you missed the...ship. It begins by two "quotes" taken from the text that follows MY opinions. The first one implies and means that under a "certain standard", meaning "some people", even something as beautiful as giving birth or describing a birth...may be seen as indecent...by some people, NOT ME.
jl
PS - I lik... See more
| | | | Henk Peelen
Niederlande
Local time: 18:47
Mitglied (2003)
Deutsch > Niederländisch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Dear Frenchman | Jan 19, 2004 |
I very well noted you used a quotation, but since you don't consider the source, it is more ore less your product (no copyright here), especially when you use these words to raise an issue that could be regarded sensitive.
Of course I noted the "under certain standard", but that is quite indefinite and doesn't fully take away the fact that you undoubtedly relate a normal, fundamental (inevitable), and beautifull thing as giving birth to children to improper / figurative use of words... See more I very well noted you used a quotation, but since you don't consider the source, it is more ore less your product (no copyright here), especially when you use these words to raise an issue that could be regarded sensitive.
Of course I noted the "under certain standard", but that is quite indefinite and doesn't fully take away the fact that you undoubtedly relate a normal, fundamental (inevitable), and beautifull thing as giving birth to children to improper / figurative use of words, which is quite debatable.
I don't like someone hiding behind woman and the accompanying "status of being protected" and simultaneously launching attacks. The quotes make it actually worser. I think one doesn't need quotes or stars if one really has to say something.
By the way, I added "right wing non-catholic believer" because I think it's fair to tell where you stand before discussing a church or political order. This sometimes can help to decide whether someone is trying to improve for instance a church by discussing it or is purely attacking it.
[Edited at 2004-01-22 08:43] ▲ Collapse
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Jean-Luc Dumont
Frankreich
Local time: 18:47
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | I feel better | Jan 19, 2004 |
Henk Peelen wrote:
I don't like someone hiding behind woman and the accompanying "status of being protected" and simultaneously launching attacks. The quotes make it actually worser. I think one doesn't need quotes or stars if one really has to say something.
Cherchez la femme, I don't get it...who brought it up?
I am relieved: I see this is no longer about rationality and freedom of speech...So I will leave it there.
JL
[Edited at 2004-01-19 19:45]
| | | | Mats Wiman
Schweden
Local time: 18:47
Mitglied (2000)
Deutsch > Schwedisch
+ ...
In stillem Gedenken | If obscenities are shown you'll need a lot of policing | Jan 19, 2004 |
and policing should be brought to a minimum if possible.
My suggestion:
 This question might be considered offensive
is the result of following perennial discussions about whether... or ....
So-called obscene words are also words.
Words is our trade, irrespective of their content
BR
Mats J C Wiman
Übersetzer/Translator/Traducteur/Traductor > swe
http://www.MatsWiman.com
http://www.Deutsch-Schwedisch.com
http://www.proz.com/translator/1749
(ProZ.com deu>swe & forum moderator)
eMail : MatsWiman@tele2.se
Street: Träsk 201
Post : S-872 97 Skog
Tel : +46-612-54112
Fax : +46-612-54181
Mobile: +46-70-5769797
[Edited at 2004-01-19 20:06]
| | | | Henk Peelen
Niederlande
Local time: 18:47
Mitglied (2003)
Deutsch > Niederländisch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | La femme? Ekurêa ! Trouvé ! | Jan 19, 2004 |
JLDSF wrote:
Cherchez la femme, I don\'t get it...who brought it up?
I am relieved: I see this is no longer about rationality and freedom of speech...So I will leave it there.
I\'m sorry, but for me you are trying to escape even more and more by putting up a smoke screen. First you hide behind the femal process of giving birth to babies, next you hide behind quotes and what is next to next: are you not born from a femme? I think so! I don\'t like it you defense the improper or at least doubtful use of the word fuck, starting with giving such an example and telling us indecency is more or less unavoidable.
I fear a 100 % trustworthy and full-of-wisdom politician has still to be discovered after some 5,000 years of known history, it might be better to \"think global and act local\".
As you know, we don\'t need to create jobs after abolishing the army, it releases money and Germany and France think money generates jobs. At least, it could generate jobs.
I don\'t want to alter what people say (an unchallenged or non explained quote is a own assertion, in my opinion). Maybe sucking decreases the need for drink, so one doesn\'t get drunk. Quite simple.
Well, I really don\'t know if purify would be the best word here, but purifying your own bookshelf couldn\'t scare, I think. Maybe \"considering and reorganizing your library\" sounds better to you.
Or ... afraid mouses would appear after taking away some book????
| | | | Jean-Luc Dumont
Frankreich
Local time: 18:47
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | That's the beauty of freedom of speech | Jan 19, 2004 |
Even the most "wacky" distorted interpretations can be posted, here. Thank you for making my bed...sorry my case... It's only my library you want to "fix" for now :
Henk Peelen wrote:
I'm sorry, but for me you are trying to escape even more and more by putting up a smoke screen. First you hide behind the femal process of giving birth to babies, next you hide behind quotes and what is next to next: are you not born from a femme? I think so! I don't like it you defense the improper or at least doubtful use of the word fuck, starting with giving such an example and telling us indecency is more or less unavoidable.
Well, I really don't know if purify would be the best word here, but purifying your own bookshelf couldn't scare, I think. Maybe "considering and reorganizing your library" sounds better to you.
[Edited at 2004-01-19 20:59]
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Henk Peelen
Niederlande
Local time: 18:47
Mitglied (2003)
Deutsch > Niederländisch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | A clear policy minimises policing | Jan 19, 2004 |
[quote]Mats Wiman wrote:
and policing should be brought to a minimum if possible.
quote]
NO, MATS WIMAN, I'm sure you didn't become a Proz figurehead by translating words. You did so by translating texts. Translating texts leaves room for avoiding avoid the improper / figurative use of words relating to reproduction, illnesses, metabolism and unhappy and unclear relations with God. I think it's allowed to do so, it's very well possible to describe an atmosphere / conversation without using the above mentioned category. Consultation with the client is recommendable, of course.
| | | | Jean-Luc Dumont
Frankreich
Local time: 18:47
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | Follow the shoe ! | Jan 19, 2004 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
and policing should be brought to a minimum if possible.
My suggestion:
This question might be considered offensive
So-called obscene words are also words.
Completely agree with you. It is a good idea but putting such a "sign" or "red light" may create a "perverse" curiosity factor (let's see how offensive it can be ) and it will be blamed for time wasting ...
Come on Mats ! Let's go to the stoning.
JL
Please translate : Il a couché avec trois femmes
Good translation : He slept with three women
Softer translation : He spent the night with three women
Revised improved translation : He spent the day with one woman
[Edited at 2004-01-19 22:35]
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Lettland
Local time: 19:47
Mitglied (2003)
Englisch > Lettisch
+ ...
Of course this is a matter of taste, but I find you a little too strict on acceptable limits on languge usage and classification of pleasures
Uldis.
"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be having fun".
(c)(seems to me)Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
[quote]Henk Peelen wrote:
Translating texts leaves room for avoiding avoid the improper / figurative use of words relating to reproduction, illnesses, metabolism and unhappy and unclear relations with God.(snip)[/unquote]
| | | | | Gentlemen please... (to JL & Henk) | Jan 19, 2004 |
I have been enjoying your intellectual sword crossing - even though I think your disagreements are based more on misunderstandings than anything else. I suspect that, over a beer, the two of you would find you had more in common than you may think right now.
However, could I plead with you both to not let this debate get too personal. Surely you can both disagree with each other without resorting to a slanging match.
Hoping to hear more arguments and less insults,
... See more I have been enjoying your intellectual sword crossing - even though I think your disagreements are based more on misunderstandings than anything else. I suspect that, over a beer, the two of you would find you had more in common than you may think right now.
However, could I plead with you both to not let this debate get too personal. Surely you can both disagree with each other without resorting to a slanging match.
Hoping to hear more arguments and less insults,
Cheers,
Berni
Incidentally, Henk, there is no insult to the Netherlanders implied in the phrase: "If X = Y then I am a Dutchman!" - It is just an expression that states that the speaker does not believe what he is being told and that the facts presented to him or her are as evidently untrue as the speaker claiming to be from Holland, when he or she most patently is not. Period. The variants are "I'm a Chinaman" - "I'm the Blug blatter beast of Trarl" etc. No offence intended whatsoever
In fact I think generally the stereotype English people have of the Dutch is generally very positive. That has certainly been my experience whenever I have ridden the "fietspaden" anyway. ▲ Collapse
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Jean-Luc Dumont
Frankreich
Local time: 18:47
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER
Dear Moderator
I apologize in advance for this last post...a whipping post, where ?
In fact I think generally the stereotype English people have of the Dutch is generally very positive. That has certainly been my experience whenever I have ridden the "fietspaden" anyway.
and so have the French about the Dutch... I love going to Holland, buy dope, drink Geneper, watch naked girls in the windows....Just kidding Isn't that bad what stereotypes make people say...or think.
I thought people like Henk had left Holland in the 19 century to move to Iowa where it was less fun
JL
PS I did not use "Netherlands" for fear of being accused of talking about sexually connoted regions
[Edited at 2004-01-19 21:58]
| | | | Henk Peelen
Niederlande
Local time: 18:47
Mitglied (2003)
Deutsch > Niederländisch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Berni Armstrong wrote:
However, could I plead with you both to not let this debate get too personal. Surely you can both disagree with each other without resorting to a slanging match.
Cheers,
Berni
Incidentally, Henk, there is no insult to the Netherlanders implied in the phrase: "If X = Y then I am a Dutchman!" - It is just an expression that states that the speaker does not believe what he is being told and that the facts presented to him or her are as evidently untrue as the speaker claiming to be from Holland, when he or she most patently is not. Period. The variants are "I'm a Chinaman" - "I'm the Blug blatter beast of Trarl" etc. No offence intended whatsoever
No, I think you understand that we don't want to get personal. I hate a debate which defenses the improper use of the word fuck which is opened by ... OK I already said it above. In our discussions there is also mutual understanding and fun.
Of course, I know " ... I'm a Dutchman" saying really applies to people from The Netherlands. However, it descends form the time teh British and Dutch (in that days more or less equal in power, while England had twice the number of inhabitants of The Netherlands, but was actually more agricultural) were argumenting about the control over New York / Nieuw Amsterdam. The Dutch lost, because "Amsterdam" wasn't really interested in North America and wasn't really in war with England. After that, the Dutch, were the proverbial dumb people, of course. (... I'll eat my hat is an alternative as well.)
It must be clear it was a joke what I said. However, I think it does sometimes not really matter if profanities are transitive or reflexive. In The Netherlands it's quite usual to say for instance to somebody "get cancer" or not directly to somebody else "if X = Y, I may get cancer". I think people should consider such expressions could be hurting anyway (not me particularly, but I can imagine some people feel offended).
I keep saying that the improper use of words promotes brutalization.
As to cycle ways, an arm chair cycling colleague of us and I are planning (!) a North to South cycle trip through The Netherlands on My 11th - 14th. We stop the nights in holiday parks and the four evenings are four powwows. Of course, everybody is welcome, but be sure there'll be puritan regulations about mind-expanding drugs, smoking indoors, adult material et cetera.
Hahaha, guess who's the author of this regulations.
[Edited at 2004-01-20 06:10]
| | | | Jean-Luc Dumont
Frankreich
Local time: 18:47
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | Progress here | Jan 19, 2004 |
Henk
Sorry to contradict you, here, but the debate, as you call it, was much far reaching (size matters here also) than the mere use of the word "fuck" that you really seem to enjoy using.... On the contrary the debate or rather my point is that there is nothing improper in using "fuck" in a kudoz question if it is a "language" related question.
But to be agreable to you, we can have a debate on the proper use of "fuck".
Hate is not a nice word :
I hate a debate which defenses the improper use of the word fuck which is opened by ...
[Edited at 2004-01-19 22:23]
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