| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | English: Who needs the natives? Initiator des Themas: IanW (X)
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gianfranco 
Brasilien
Local time: 05:41
Mitglied (2001)
Englisch > Italienisch
+ ...
| The mysterious 'N' icons | Jun 2, 2004 |
In the KudoZ pages has been implemented, long time ago, the display of two types of 'N' icons, for members declaring to be Native speakers of the source or target language.
These symbols are visible to moderators and not yet finalized (not yet made available to all other users). Steffen and Roberta have been seeing them for so long that they assumed they were generally available.
Textklick (Chris Irwin) wrote:
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As a contribution towards providing assistance to those who would know better - and deterring those who should know better - it might be an idea to e-decorate the Kudoz questions and answerers' offerings with an indication of the respective mother tongue...
The purpose of displaying them is exactly what Chris has anticipated above, one more element of judgement to evaluate the answers provided, not necessarily the most important, but useful in many cases.
Gianfranco
| | | | Steffen Walter
Deutschland
Local time: 09:41
Mitglied (2002)
Englisch > Deutsch
+ ...
| To be implemented without further delay | Jun 2, 2004 |
Gianfranco Manca wrote:
In the KudoZ pages has been implemented, long time ago, the display of two types of 'N' icons, for members declaring to be Native speakers of the source or target language.
These symbols are visible to moderators and not yet finalized (not yet made available to all other users). Steffen and Roberta have been seeing them for so long that they assumed they were generally available.
The purpose of displaying them is exactly what Chris has anticipated above, one more element of judgement to evaluate the answers provided, not necessarily the most important, but useful in many cases.
Gianfranco
These signs should be easy to activate for full display to all members, which I recommend to do ASAP.
Steffen
| | | | Ruxi
Deutsch > Rumänisch
+ ...
| I don't understand... | Jun 2, 2004 |
I read the whole thread and got the feeling somebody wanted to start a war here. It was really not necessary, there are enough of them already in the world and on ProZ.
With all respect to native English people and not only, I don't understand what you intend to do with this conflict.It has been discussed and discussed on this subject.
I agree that native people have some more knowledge than no-native.I respect them and try to learn from them.
Still what you want here is to des... See more I read the whole thread and got the feeling somebody wanted to start a war here. It was really not necessary, there are enough of them already in the world and on ProZ.
With all respect to native English people and not only, I don't understand what you intend to do with this conflict.It has been discussed and discussed on this subject.
I agree that native people have some more knowledge than no-native.I respect them and try to learn from them.
Still what you want here is to destroy what millions of people have done for centuries.
People all over the world learn and love English. It has become the most important language in the world.Aren't you proud of it?
In every country pupils learn at school English first of all. And it is the literary English, not UK, no US, no International as somebody called it.
We have learned at school not only your grammar, but your most important poets and writers. I will never forget "The golden daffodil", or Shakespeare, or Dickens a.s.o
Most of the films in the world are English, be it UK or US, documents, books, computer language.All are in English.
And you wonder people have to translate?
The reasons of all this things:
1. The history
2. The language itself wich is may be the most easiest of all.
Children in my country for instance, and not only, complain that German is very difficult, French too. German grammar and French pronunciation are very difficult. The can very difficult learn them, but every child can speak in a few month English.
Aren't you proud of this?
What happens in KudoZ is also a matter of dictionaries in 80% of the cases. Literature questions (and jobs also) are almost inexistant. If dictionaries are not always written by native speakers, nobody is guilty. You use what you have and it's better than nothing.
I want to tell you something else. I have learned (not only at school, but talking to English people I met) that there are so many dialects at least in UK.
Then how can you call your language UK language? They told me there are 2 or 3 dialects only in London and arround, then in Manchester they speak another dialect, in Scottland, Wales and Irland (including Northern Irland)another.
So you have also to put by KudoZ which UK English you use.Indeed there are different dialects (as Shakespeare also used) which only few people understand.
But when you work with international documents (and this is what translators are for) there is a literary, classic English to be used for everyone. I repeat, there is no International English, but only English.And basic, in all countries English is the same, only some parts of the vocabulary are different, as far as I have noticed.
Having all these said, I want to ask you something too. You are translators too, you have learned some foreign languages yourself but you are not native. Still many of you translate in these languages and in KudoZ have your strong opinions and answers.Why?
I never met a De-De or French only question till now, but a lot of English only. Why is that?
Please don't understand me wrong. I am not against native speakers, but I feel hurt by your afirmations that no native do not speak or use correctly English. That is not true.Still there is a matter of the capacity and talent of everyone to use a foreign language.
Translators are passing exams in order to be certified for thier work.
If we make a statistics of the translators,if you take all English,German and French native translators out, I don't know who would remain to translate in the different countries.
Then considering that this three categories of native-speakers do only speak as foreign languages: French, English, German, Spanish, who has to do the rest of the work? What happens to other people of the world who needs their language translated?
And remember also the UE and the new countries. They all speak English,French, German very well. But do you speak their language as well? No.
So please let us live too. Let us work and be aware and use (of)what we have learned.
Translation is not a matter of native speakers, but of understanding and translating well two languages.The rest is theory.
I don't understand why some people say "I speak that language since my 5 th year, I leave in that country, but I am not a native speaker". Where is the difference and what more would have learned those native people in the first 4 years of their life.
It's difficult enough that most of the jobs are asking for native speakers. The other translators should disapear or die, or not exist?
Is that what you want? You already have your supremacy in the world.There are also so many other countries where English or French or Spanish is used as official language, but is not native (Africa,Asia, a.s.o). What do you want to do with those translators?
Once again I don't want to hurt anybody here, but I feel very hurt of what you write here against no-native people.I also don't interfere with KudoZ where I don't know the answer for sure and don't answer in English only (the other language monolingual I never met, as I said) except for easy questions.
Still I am proud of my knowledge in foreign languages (6) and continue to improve.
Ruxi ▲ Collapse
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 09:41
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER
A few comments on Ruxi’s posting, which is successful in missing my point entirely.
I read the whole thread and got the feeling somebody wanted to start a war here.
Not me – I made a comment on something which was bothering me and many other native English speakers agreed. Nothing belligerent about it at all
Still what you want here is to destroy what millions of people have done for cen... See more A few comments on Ruxi’s posting, which is successful in missing my point entirely.
I read the whole thread and got the feeling somebody wanted to start a war here.
Not me – I made a comment on something which was bothering me and many other native English speakers agreed. Nothing belligerent about it at all
Still what you want here is to destroy what millions of people have done for centuries.
What – give inane answers to KudoZ questions in a language which they barely speak?
People all over the world learn and love English. It has become the most important language in the world. Aren't you proud of it?
Yes, and this is precisely the reason that I want to protect it from being hijacked. After all, this is English, not Esperanto.
I have learned (not only at school, but talking to English people I met) that there are so many dialects at least in UK. Then how can you call your language UK language? They told me there are 2 or 3 dialects only in London and arround, then in Manchester they speak another dialect, in Scottland, Wales and Irland (including Northern Irland) another. So you have also to put by KudoZ which UK English you use.Indeed there are different dialects (as Shakespeare also used) which only few people understand.
There are differences in terms of accent and slight differences in vocabulary, but the way I write English (as an Irishman) is much the same as Amy (from England), Gareth (from Scotland) and writeaway (from the USA) – these are not dialects. And since when is Shakespeare a dialect?????
You are translators too, you have learned some foreign languages yourself but you are not native. Still many of you translate in these languages and in KudoZ have your strong opinions and answers. Why?
I don’t have such a strong opinion in my foreign languages – that’s my point (perhaps you should read my original posting once again)
I never met a De-De or French only question till now, but a lot of English only. Why is that?
Because you didn’t sign up for this language pairing, perhaps?
And remember also the UE and the new countries. They all speak English, French, German very well. But do you speak their language as well? No.
So I can’t comment on a ludicrous answer just because I don’t speak the answerer’s own language? That will certainly raise the quality of the site. And how can you claim that "they all speak English, French, German very well". Some of them certainly do, but not all.
It's difficult enough that most of the jobs are asking for native speakers. The other translators should disapear or die, or not exist?
Yes, translators without a native language are in a pretty difficult situation, I admit.
There are also so many other countries where English or French or Spanish is used as official language, but is not native (Africa,Asia, a.s.o). What do you want to do with those translators?
I repeat, read my original posting and you will see that you have jumped to ridiculous conclusions. I actually said “As far as I am concerned, if other people choose to do so and their customers are happy, then good luck to them.” You seem to imply that I am suggesting that non-native translators should be rounded up and shot – how you arrive at that conclusion is a mystery to me.
In short, your title sums your posting up perfectly: "I don't understand".
[Edited at 2004-06-02 18:45] ▲ Collapse
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Marc P (X)
Local time: 09:41
Deutsch > Englisch
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| English: Who needs the natives? | Jun 2, 2004 |
Ruxi,
Ian made his reasons for starting the thread quite clear. Like many native speakers of English, he has a certain perception of what constitutes "English". That perception is at variance with what many non-native speakers regard as "English". Your post confirms that both in its content and its form.
According to you, Ian, in expressing his opinion, is "starting a war". You express your opinion on the same subject. What are you doing?
The world's most ... See more Ruxi,
Ian made his reasons for starting the thread quite clear. Like many native speakers of English, he has a certain perception of what constitutes "English". That perception is at variance with what many non-native speakers regard as "English". Your post confirms that both in its content and its form.
According to you, Ian, in expressing his opinion, is "starting a war". You express your opinion on the same subject. What are you doing?
The world's most widely spoken language is not "English", but "pidgin English". This is simply a statement of fact and you need attach no value judgement to it. Regardless of whether this state of affairs is desirable, though, I don't think it's too difficult to understand the objection to "English" and "pidgin English" being declared synonymous. Many native speakers are quite naturally unhappy about this, since they take a certain pride in their ability to write good English. Equally, many readers of English fail to understand why they should be expected to read a mangled form of their language when the speakers of certain other languages are not expected to do so. The French, in particular, have a tradition of intolerance towards abuse of their language. (Again, this is simply a statement of fact.) And it is currently en vogue for Romanians to declare that their language is too difficult to be learnt properly by foreigners, a claim which presumably rules out translation into Romanian by non-native speakers of it, but one which happens to have absolutely no scientific basis.
We do not "call our language UK language". The correct term for it is "British English". There are many dialects in the British Isles, but British English has a standard written form; there is absolutely no need, at least for linguistic reasons, to seek a Scottish translator for a text intended for a Scottish readership, although there may be other reasons for doing so. The idea of declaring in KudoZ what dialect of English (as distinct from variety, i.e. British, US, etc.) one speaks is ridiculous.
Whether English is easy to learn or not is a moot point. One reason why it is often considered easy to learn is that the grammar is often not taught formally to the same extent as with German, for instance, particularly to native English speakers themselves. Grammatical difficulties are simply ignored. Never having learnt certain aspects of grammar, many speakers of English - natives and non-natives alike - are often blissfully unaware of their own incorrect grammar.
Other native speakers can answer for themselves, but I am certainly neither proud nor ashamed of the fact that pidgin English is the world's most widely spoken language.
Whether international English exists or not is also a moot point. I take the view that it does. By my own definition, which I don't presume to force upon anyone else, International English is English free of regional elements. Regional elements in this context is usage peculiar to and possibly only understood by speakers in one particular region, by which I mean North America, the British Isles, etc. Grammar and orthography are not generally affected (though there are exceptions), firstly because a solution simply isn't possible (it's either "color" or "colour"), secondly because comprehension is not generally impaired. Vocabulary is affected to some extent: for example, I would write "bonnet" in British English, "hood" in American English, and "engine cover" in International English. The main issue however concerns cultural elements. Reference to British celebrities or television programmes may be rather pointless if they are unknown outside Britain, for example. This aspect of cultural adaptation is part of the translation process per se and is not unique to English. It should be familiar to any translator. The difference between English and a great many other languages is that a cultural divide exists not only between source and target language, but also among different readers of the same target language.
With regard to the English of non-native speakers, I have a simple philosophy that "native is as native does", and if a non-native speaker can write English to the standard of an educated native speaker, then for the purposes of translation competence, that is what he or she is. I do know translators for whom English is a second language learnt later in life but who can write English to that standard; they are the exception, however. The majority of translators translating into English for whom English is not their first language write a form of English that is, in the eyes of English native speakers, sub-standard. This is just a fact of life, and one that some non-natives need to deal with. Just as the English, Welsh, Americans, etc. would never presume to define what constitutes the French language (and if you really want to start a war, you might try doing just that), they are not going to be particularly impressed by the idea that "correct English" can be defined by an examination board somewhere on the Balkans.
It's widely appreciated that sufficient native English speakers do not exist for translation from many languages, and that translation by non-natives may be the best option. Of itself, though, that does not bring the English written by those non-natives up to native standard. Nor does translating into English because it's impossible to make a living translating in the other direction. Bad English is bad English, whatever the gross domestic product of the country in which it was written.
Translation is not a matter of "native speakers". It is a matter of understanding and expressing. A sub-native command of the target language means sub-standard expression. As I've already said, this is a simple fact of life and one some translators need to deal with, just as other translators need to face their deficiencies in their command of the source language or their subject knowledge.
Such is life, I'm afraid.
Marc
[Edited at 2004-06-02 13:51] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Catherine Bolton
Local time: 09:41
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
In stillem Gedenken | Again, thanks Ian | Jun 2, 2004 |
Ian,
Your response to Ruxi's posting is far calmer than mine would have been and, to be honest, my blood is still boiling over some of his/her outlandish affirmations.
Any comment is probably quite pointless, but I must take exception to one statement in particular:
"Children in my country for instance, and not only, complain that German is very difficult, French too. German grammar and French pronunciation are very difficult. The can very difficult learn them, but every... See more Ian,
Your response to Ruxi's posting is far calmer than mine would have been and, to be honest, my blood is still boiling over some of his/her outlandish affirmations.
Any comment is probably quite pointless, but I must take exception to one statement in particular:
"Children in my country for instance, and not only, complain that German is very difficult, French too. German grammar and French pronunciation are very difficult. The can very difficult learn them, but every child can speak in a few month English."
So I suppose that's why children who are native speakers of English initially think that all verbs are regular, just to cite one example. After all, if "I play" becomes "I played" in the past tense, it follows that "I go" should be "I goed", right? This is because English is just soooo easy - child's play!
All I can say is that Ruxi's own incorrect use of English simply proves your initial point, Ian. Indeed, who needs the natives? ▲ Collapse
| | | | RobinB
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 02:41
Deutsch > Englisch
Didn't really want to get into this, but there are a couple of points that need to be emphasised/repeated.
Firstly, it's indicative (I suppose) that while I and the other native speakers of English understood perfectly well what Ian's talking about, most non-natives seem to miss the point (or rather, the several points). If taken to extremes, this could be seen as a "non-natives rush in where angels fear to tread" situation, thereby further exacerbating what's already been unilatera... See more Didn't really want to get into this, but there are a couple of points that need to be emphasised/repeated.
Firstly, it's indicative (I suppose) that while I and the other native speakers of English understood perfectly well what Ian's talking about, most non-natives seem to miss the point (or rather, the several points). If taken to extremes, this could be seen as a "non-natives rush in where angels fear to tread" situation, thereby further exacerbating what's already been unilaterally declared a "war".
Secondly, accents/dialects. Seriously, what's this got to do with the debate? No matter where native speakers come from, we don't *write* with an accent, do we. What we write (or strive to write) is excellent, educated English. You couldn't tell where Ian's from by the way he writes, could you, or any of the rest of us (except, perhaps, a BE/AE distinction).
One of the problems with English becoming so ubiquitous is that so many people think they have an excellent command of English. We native speakers are partly at fault here, because we're often too embarrassed and/or polite to tell a non-native that their English is, well, sub-optimal. Fine for getting by in a conversation, even in a business situation, but as for writing English (far less translating): don't give up the day job.
Here in Germany, we're confronted almost every day with the "BSE" problem (Bad Simple English). Customers think that because they learned some English, maybe even spent a year in the UK or the US, they're now experts in our language. Like some translators, they can't distinguish between education and ability. So we get into tortuous arguments with customers who are so blinkered as to their own ability that they're prepared to argue the toss with experienced native speakers. Ouch. This is also probably why they're so willing to accept bad translations that merely reflect or reinforce their own lack of ability (but that's another topic).
Next: English "rules". Most European languages are heavily rule-based, like much in their cultures (a well researched and documented phenomenon). You learn the rules, you're a long way towards learning the language. Somebody complained that we can't be bothered to teach the English "rules". We don't have those sort of rules; English is a principles-based language. You learn the principles, you're a long way towards learning the language. But if your mindset is fixated on rules, you'll have problems.
It's like dictionaries: the English tradition is for dictionaries to be descriptive, whereas the continental European tradition is for dictionaries to be prescriptive. So often, non-natives will cite a dictionary as some sort of allegedly authoritative source ("if it's in print it has to be right"), while native English speakers tend to be much more sceptical about relying on dictionaries.
Native English speakers are generally always willing to listen to non-natives, and if the latter are also subject area specialists, we'll take on board anything useful they can contribute. But I have to agree with Ian that this approach is often not reciprocated - and more's the pity.
Robin ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Descriptive versus prescriptive | Jun 2, 2004 |
It's like dictionaries: the English tradition is for dictionaries to be descriptive, whereas the continental European tradition is for dictionaries to be prescriptive.
A note on this point: a linguist will not regard anything as prescriptive - the books - dictionaries, grammars etc. should try to reflect the language as it is used and not to impose some kind of artificial structure on it.
For a linguist "I don't do nothing" is NOT grammatically wrong. It is part of the... See more It's like dictionaries: the English tradition is for dictionaries to be descriptive, whereas the continental European tradition is for dictionaries to be prescriptive.
A note on this point: a linguist will not regard anything as prescriptive - the books - dictionaries, grammars etc. should try to reflect the language as it is used and not to impose some kind of artificial structure on it.
For a linguist "I don't do nothing" is NOT grammatically wrong. It is part of the language as it is spoken by many people.
However it is socially unacceptable shall we say. It would not be something you would expect to find in academic writings for instance. But you may well find it in a novel where the writer is capturing speech in all its strange, idiomatic and "ungrammatical forms".
On the other hand an expression such as "confronted to" is incorrect as it is not part of the English language and would never be used by any native speaker.
But who knows what the future may hold!!! ▲ Collapse
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RobinB
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 02:41
Deutsch > Englisch
| You're being descriptive! | Jun 2, 2004 |
A note on this point: a linguist will not regard anything as prescriptive - the books - dictionaries, grammars etc. should try to reflect the language as it is used and not to impose some kind of artificial structure on it.
For a linguist "I don't do nothing" is NOT grammatically wrong. It is part of the language as it is spoken by many people.
Right. You're illustrating the descriptive tradition (and more elegantly than I did. Very educated, like). But to say that "a linguist will not regard anything as prescriptive" automatically disbars very many translators from being treated as linguists (although this isn't necessarily a bad thing).
I'm afraid that my experience is that far too many translators really *do* believe in dictionaries; they'll take anything that's written at face value. Especially if it's been written by a professor.
That begs the question: if you say you don't believe in dictionaries, does some dictionary somewhere die?
Robin
| | | | Sarah Ponting
Italien
Local time: 09:41
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Native competence in a language | Jun 2, 2004 |
Ruxi wrote:
I don't understand why some people say "I speak that language since my 5 th year, I leave in that country, but I am not a native speaker". Where is the difference and what more would have learned those native people in the first 4 years of their life.
You may not understand, but I'm afraid that's the way it is. Developmental psychologists and linguists concur that there is a critical period for the acquisition of native competency in a language during the early years of life, after which it is too late. People can, of course, learn languages later, but will never achieve the same sensitivity and competency as they would have done if they had been exposed to them and learned to speak them during their early years. It's no good being angered by such facts of life, that's just the way it is.
"There is a critical period for acquisition, after which it becomes impossible to learn a language. The cases of Isabelle, Genie and Chelsea all seem to prove that our phenomenal language-learning ability remains with us only for the first few years of life, after which it is shut down by some genetic programming. It seems that we need to differentiate between two critical periods. One lasts from birth to about age two, during which time a child needs exposure to language in order to develop the brain structures necessary for language acquisition and acquiring native speaker competence. The second “critical period” is said to last from about the age of ten years to sixteen years, during which time individuals can still easily acquire a language, but not with native competence."
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/a/z/azc103/Ling%201%20first%20language%20acquisition%20notes.pdf
"Allowing for a certain amount of individual variation, one can tentatively suggest that the peak begins shortly before the age of two years, and the gradual decline sets in before the age of five; the critical period then ends during an age span ranging approximately from age seven through ten years. More linguistic and neuropsychological research is needed in order to verify whether the age periods given here are indeed correct. But independently of whether the proposed age limits need to be modified or not, it can be deduced from the critical period hypothesis that one should dis-tinguish between three types of bilingual acquisition: 1) simultaneous acquisition of bilingualism (2L1), if the child begins to acquire two or more languages during the first three or four years of life; 2) child second language (L2) acquisition, if the onset of acquisition of the second or further language happens between ages five and ten; 3) adult L2 acquisition, after the age of ten."
http://www.rrz.uni-hamburg.de/romanistik/personal/pdf-Dateien/bilchild.pdf.
If you're interested in the subject you can find much more information on the Web. In any case, I think you're missing the point of what Ian was saying and I agree with Robin that several non-natives appear to have fallen into the same trap, whilst not one native has misunderstood his message. Doesn't that tell you anything?
Sarah
[Edited at 2004-06-02 14:13]
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finnland
Local time: 10:41
Mitglied (2003)
Finnisch > Deutsch
+ ...
| Try to see the positive aspect too | Jun 2, 2004 |
I sympathise with Ian, it is of course infuriating if good advice is ignored.
As I have never visited the EN-EN site I don't know whats going on, but what I learn from this thread is, that there are lots of people who use it and in doing so show, that they are not quite sure about their command of the English language.
Isn't that a positive sign?
Since I joined Proz.com more than a year ago there has not been a single Kudoz-question for Finnish-German (except my own pos... See more I sympathise with Ian, it is of course infuriating if good advice is ignored.
As I have never visited the EN-EN site I don't know whats going on, but what I learn from this thread is, that there are lots of people who use it and in doing so show, that they are not quite sure about their command of the English language.
Isn't that a positive sign?
Since I joined Proz.com more than a year ago there has not been a single Kudoz-question for Finnish-German (except my own postings), so all those colleagues working in that language pair are fully proficient at least in German.
In English-Finnish there come sometimes questions, mostly easy, from students of the language or of the type "What's Merry Christmas in Finnish". And rarely native Finnish language professionals bother to answer them.
So be happy with the traffic on EN-EN, at least you can collect lots of Kudoz points, if you have the patients to attend.
Which all probes, that Ruxi is wrong, completely wrong. English is the most difficult language on Earth, as most Kudoz questions are related to English. And German is child's play, nobody needs the Kudoz system for German.
Decided by democratic vote... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Confusion over the meaning of linguist perhaps? | Jun 2, 2004 |
When I spoke of "linguist" I meant "linguist" in its academic sense, i.e. someone who is concerned with the study of linguistics on an academic level, rather than "linguist" in the sense of someone who is an expert in the field of language, i.e. a practitioner.
It is not my intention to disbar any translator from being called a linguist in this second sense at all and I am not even a linguist in the first sense myself either.
This is something that I have dug up from the time ... See more When I spoke of "linguist" I meant "linguist" in its academic sense, i.e. someone who is concerned with the study of linguistics on an academic level, rather than "linguist" in the sense of someone who is an expert in the field of language, i.e. a practitioner.
It is not my intention to disbar any translator from being called a linguist in this second sense at all and I am not even a linguist in the first sense myself either.
This is something that I have dug up from the time when I actually did study some linguistics in the first sense (during PGCE time).
I am not against the use of dictionaries or any other tools that may be available, but you have to remember that a dictionary is precisely this - a tool - and one that has to be constantly developed. There are people doing this and they are very helpful. Where would we be without them? But they are supposed to assist you rather than tell you what to do, i.e. be descriptive. ▲ Collapse
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Giuliana Buscaglione
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 00:41
Mitglied (2001)
Deutsch > Italienisch
+ ...
| Attitude is the problem | Jun 2, 2004 |
Hi,
I wish we could avoid the *we, native speakers of English* and *you, non-native speakers* as opposed sides, as Ian's original posting [or at least the way I have perceived it as a non-native speaker of English (please correct me, Ian, if I have misunderstood you)] did reflect a status quo for the English community (could also apply to any other language/community), but was mainly focused on an attitude.
I don't see the problem that much in being a native speaker or ... See more Hi,
I wish we could avoid the *we, native speakers of English* and *you, non-native speakers* as opposed sides, as Ian's original posting [or at least the way I have perceived it as a non-native speaker of English (please correct me, Ian, if I have misunderstood you)] did reflect a status quo for the English community (could also apply to any other language/community), but was mainly focused on an attitude.
I don't see the problem that much in being a native speaker or not, but in the very attitude, the arrogance of insisting bitterly on a term/interpretation, even if an x number of colleagues disagrees with it. This happens in other SCs as well, but AFAIK it's not that exacerbated, perhaps because the other SCs aren't sooo big. IMHO, the bigger and the more active a SC is, the more likely it is that conflicts may arise.
This is not the first time I hear that EN natives have stopped answering KudoZ and I was (and am) sorry to hear that. I understand the very human reasons behind it, but IMHO there is only a way to keep the standard as high as possible, especially in mono questions/answers, i.e. the participation of native speakers. After all, answers and peers were made and are meant for helping the asker and not as an exercise of the I-know-better game.
We can all try, as native speakers of at least one language (just thinking about bilinguals), first to think the way we would react, if a non-native tried to teach us how to understand our own mothertongue and then react to a disagree as veemently as described.
Giuliana ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Signing up for the anger-management course as we speak... | Jun 2, 2004 |
Ruxi notes:
"I am not against native speakers, but I feel hurt by your afirmations that no native do not speak or use correctly English. That is not true."
Quite.
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 09:41
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
Anne Gillard-Groddeck wrote:
When I spoke of "linguist" I meant "linguist" in its academic sense, i.e. someone who is concerned with the study of linguistics on an academic level, rather than "linguist" in the sense of someone who is an expert in the field of language, i.e. a practitioner.
There is a distinction here on a number of levels.
In the US, to my knowledge, "linguist" is generally reserved for the academic expert in or student of linguistics.
In the UK, "linguist" is used:
- widely, for a person proficient in several languages;
- by persons proficient in several languages or who use languages professionally, for themselves (hence the "Institute of Linguists";
- by experts in or students of linguistics, for themselves.
Arguably, the term for those proficient in several languages or who have learnt several languages formally is "philologists", but this term is simply not used in the UK. In any case, the OERD defines "linguistics" as "the scientific study of language and its structure" and "philology" as "the science of language, especially in its historical and comparative aspects"; in a British university, you are most likely to find either of these being taught by the Linguistics department, and if the Modern Languages Department is teaching either, it is most likely to be "linguistics" rather than "philology" as defined above. It is also more than likely that the two departments will not be talking to each other or even be aware of each other's existence, and if they are, that they will refer to each other as "linguisticians" and "language-learners" respectively.
Marc
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