| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Should questions be posted on KudoZ by non-native speakers? Initiator des Themas: XXXphxxx (X)
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Nicole Schnell 
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 21:15
Englisch > Deutsch
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In stillem Gedenken | Naw, no bashing, Ty. | Mar 3, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Nicole,
As much as I love you, and I do.... (No British sarcasm intended here! - I thoroughly enjoy most of your postings, your directness is a breath of fresh air)...
...I am a little disappointed by you lashing out against the British like that. Especially when you yourself have raged against America/American bashing in the past. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Sorry that it took a while to reply - had to finish a job.
No, I am most definitely not bashing any nationalities. I do raise my voice, though, whenever things get out of hand. Be it the ongoing and bizarre linguistic war about AE / BE or the native- / non-native-thing. Americans apparently have better things to do than complaining about Brit English. Germans have better things to do than complaining about Austrian, Swiss or whatever German. However, this obsession has driven particular colleagues to call me between 4 and 5 am, waking up the entire family. "You translate into ENGLISH??!? You are not a native speaker!!!" I am not making this up.
So, maybe I AM a bit sore from being targeted from one particular island. 
Greetings,
Nicole
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | Nicole Schnell
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 21:15
Englisch > Deutsch
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In stillem Gedenken | Back to the topic | Mar 3, 2012 |
I don't mind if colleagues post questions in their reversed language pair. If they post a smart question - good for them. If they prefer to commit social suicide - their problem.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 21:15
Englisch > Deutsch
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In stillem Gedenken | I see. So this is not about quality at all, but about the mere label. | Mar 3, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
I am born of British and Chinese/Singapore/Malaysian heritage (count the languages there), brought up and educated in Brazil from the age of 1 where I lived for 25 years. I went on to university, did my first degree and M.A. in Russian, lived in the then Soviet Union followed by 7 years working for Russians. Interspersed with that were periods in France and Spain; more recently ten years living in France. I have 2 French children for whom French is their first language. Now, I could count three or four languages that I could claim to be my native or near-native language, but being a stickler for high standards and absolutely aware of where my weaknesses lie, I’ve chosen to stick with one target and three (related) source languages. So, rather than being arrogant, I think I am simply attempting to point out that, in my view, adding ‘native’ speaker status to your profile and translating into that language is not to be undertaken lightly.
Like a "copyright" for a particular language.
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XXXphxxx (X)
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 05:15
Portugiesisch > Englisch
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THEMENSTARTER | Perhaps you just didn't understand me | Mar 3, 2012 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
I see. So this is not about quality at all, but about the mere label.
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
being a stickler for high standards and absolutely aware of where my weaknesses lie
Like a "copyright" for a particular language.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 05:15
Portugiesisch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | Maybe I missed something | Mar 3, 2012 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
No, I am most definitely not bashing any nationalities. I do raise my voice, though, whenever things get out of hand. Be it the ongoing and bizarre linguistic war about AE / BE or the native- / non-native-thing. Americans apparently have better things to do than complaining about Brit English. Germans have better things to do than complaining about Austrian, Swiss or whatever German. However, this obsession has driven particular colleagues to call me between 4 and 5 am, waking up the entire family. "You translate into ENGLISH??!? You are not a native speaker!!!" I am not making this up.
So, maybe I AM a bit sore from being targeted from one particular island.
I have to say that I missed the point in this post at which you were targeted for your American English (I'm actually making assumptions here, forgive me if it's another variant that you speak). These petty arguments will never go away, but I have to say that laying this exclusively at the door of the Brits is wholly unreasonable. I cannot think of a country that does not mock other 'variants' of its language, it's human nature I'm afraid, and I can certainly vouch for the fact that I have barely met a German who hasn't had disparaging things to say about 'their' language as spoken by the Austrians or Swiss - we're all to blame here to some degree or another.
It would seem that the KudoZ 'abuse' is just particularly rife in my language combinations and in fact in one in particular so the message is just suck it and see and let's all celebrate inclusion and diversity.
[Edited at 2012-03-03 10:44 GMT]
| | | | Cetacea
Schweiz
Local time: 06:15
Englisch > Deutsch
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| Content sometimes does matter... | Mar 3, 2012 |
Gitte Hovedskov Hansen wrote:
And although sometimes I won't be able to render translations into English with the same nuances or the same finesse as native English speakers, at least I know for sure that I CAN render the message correctly, which is, more often than not, my clients' objective.
I couldn't agree with Gitte more. I've just spent the past two weeks revising a scientific publication that was translated into English by a native speaker of British English. Impeccable writing, no doubt, but the author realized something must be amiss when he started getting comments on things that he knew for a fact he never wrote. The person who did the original translation may have produced the finest English prose, but he/she obviously knew neither the subject matter nor local idiosyncrasies well enough to reproduce the thoughts expressed by the author. And strangely enough, this particular client cared more about the content of his paper being conveyed as he intended it than about linguistic purity... Luckily, he sent out PDF previews to colleagues before having it printed the way it was.
So with all due respect to those avid defenders of the "thou shalt only translate into your native language" dogma, knowing your source language and your subject matter inside out may actually be more important sometimes. So let people ask KudoZ questions if they want--after all, I have the option of adding them to my "blocked" list. Which, by the way, is mostly filled with native speakers habitually taking on texts they obviously don't have a clue about.
Lisa Simpson wrote:
It would be very interesting to see global figures for translations into target languages that were not the translator’s native language. I have little doubt that English would form the lion’s share – by a very long shot. I think I am right in saying that is what many of the English native speakers find somewhat irksome.
Why? If they're good, it doesn't matter who produced them. And like you said, we've all seen our fair share of bad ones, by natives and non-natives, I might add. As for my calling it a dogma: there are plenty of examples for this all over this site, in countless forum posts. I never said you were one of its defenders.
[Edited at 2012-03-03 17:59 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 05:15
Hebräisch > Englisch
| Seems to me to be 3 separate issues | Mar 3, 2012 |
Cetacea wrote:
I've just spent the past two weeks revising a scientific publication that was translated into English by a native speaker of British English.... The person who did the original translation may have produced the finest English prose, but he/she obviously knew neither the subject matter nor local idiosyncrasies well enough to reproduce the thoughts expressed by the author.
1. Insufficient knowledge of source language/culture.
2. Insufficient knowledge of specialisation.
3. Insufficent knowledge of target language/culture.
The native English speaker under discussion in Cetacea's case seems to be guilty of 1 and 2.
The non-native speaker under discussion in Lisa's original post seems to be guilty of 2 and 3.
I don't think the whole native/non-native thing is a case of right/wrong, or better/worse...it's all highly subjective, different markets and context-dependent.
A translator, whether native or non-native, needs to possess sufficient knowledge in all three areas above.
Problems occur when:
1. A translator has the "it's only my source language type-attitude and rests on their laurels regarding their source language skills.
2. A translator accepts work in an unfamilar field/specialisation.
3. A translator has an inflated and unrealistic/delusional opinion of their target language ability.
Cetacea wrote:
those avid defenders of the "thou shalt only translate into your native language" dogma
I wouldn't call it dogma to believe that when, all things being equal, you believe it's preferable to translate into a native language. Naturally, there will always be exceptions and I for one would never say "only" in the above sentence, as with all things it's not so black and white.
[Edited at 2012-03-03 15:29 GMT]
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XXXphxxx (X)
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 05:15
Portugiesisch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER
Cetacea wrote:
with all due respect to those avid defenders of the "thou shalt only translate into your native language" dogma
I don’t recall having said ‘only’ either. In fact a scan of this post reveals that the only times the term has been used in that context was by the non-natives.
We all have experiences of poor translations, nothing new there, too many even to cite examples. I, for one, spent a few years with a running contract to ‘proof-read’ (entirely rewrite) documents written by people who had clearly over-inflated opinions of their level of English. In the end I gave the work up, it was too demoralising.
It would be very interesting to see global figures for translations into target languages that were not the translator’s native language. I have little doubt that English would form the lion’s share – by a very long shot. I think I am right in saying that is what many of the English native speakers find somewhat irksome.
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexiko
Local time: 23:15
Deutsch > Englisch
| What we've got hiyah, | Mar 3, 2012 |
is failyah to communcate!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o
What everyone in this thread has in common is an abhorrence of bad translations, whatever the reason. What Lisa is focusing on is the translator who masters neither her target language nor the subject. She asked a simple question: "Is anyone else bothered by this and do we think that a valuable tool... See more is failyah to communcate!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o
What everyone in this thread has in common is an abhorrence of bad translations, whatever the reason. What Lisa is focusing on is the translator who masters neither her target language nor the subject. She asked a simple question: "Is anyone else bothered by this and do we think that a valuable tool is being lost because other translators are walking away from KudoZ, equally disheartened?"
We know that some texts are sometimes handled well by native speakers of the source text: a medical doctor, a nuclear engineer, etc. We know there are many excellent translators working into non-mother tongue target texts and that it's often hard to find native speakers of target texts when working in "limited diffusion" languages. We know that there are lots of bad translators out there who don't understand the source text adequately. The subject of this thread is also not about all the other exceptions, such as using English as an intermediate language to translate between Urdu and Latvian.
No new rules will be established. It simply won't happen. The only thing we can do in KudoZ is ignore, refuse to support, filter them.
But in the meantime, I ask our non-English native colleagues to understand that many good people are rightfully upset about how the English language, in particular, is being widely abused, disrespected and massacred.
I could cite dozens of concrete examples of KudoZ askers demonstrating year after year that they are in the wrong business and that we are supporting them, but the site rules prohibit citing specific examples. In the examples I could cite, the askers provide sample translations in horrific English for review, not of highly technical texts, but of texts involving tourism, marketing, literature. We can find hundreds of examples of their work online.
Please read Wendell Ricketts' excellent article:
Please Mind the Gap: Defending English Against “Passive” Translation
And yet we find—we translators who are native English speakers, trained in our language, in our culture (high, low, and pop), in our literature, in our media, and in our craft—that translations into English are increasingly supplied (one is tempted to write “committed”) by non-native speakers; that our work is ever-more-frequently revised by non-native speakers who correct what does not require correction; and that clients are either unmoved by the mangled, macaronic, deformed English that is foisted on them as true translation or are unable to tell the difference. I’m not sure which of those two propositions is more chilling.
http://aiic.net/ViewPage.cfm/article2770.htm
Also of interest:
http://inglisc.wordpress.com/
http://inglisc.wordpress.com/the-gallery-of-wrongness/
So really, I guess, the question to answer is: should we support bad translators by answering their KudoZ questions? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Thanks for those links, Kim. | Mar 4, 2012 |
I particularly liked this quote:
Or, as David Dunning, a Cornell professor of social psychology, put it: “If you’re incompetent, you can’t know you’re incompetent.”
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexiko
Local time: 23:15
Deutsch > Englisch
| The products we support | Mar 4, 2012 |
"Criticizing the Italian Ministry of Tourism for its embarrassing, amateurish, ham-handed publicity efforts is a little like shooting fish in a barrel: there’s hardly any sport in it.
But how can you resist? Especially if you take into account the hundreds (yes, hundreds) of millions of Euros the Ministry has spent on a money pit of a national tourism website (with ugly, shameful translations in a half-dozen languages) and on publicity campaigns like these.
Magic Italy in To... See more "Criticizing the Italian Ministry of Tourism for its embarrassing, amateurish, ham-handed publicity efforts is a little like shooting fish in a barrel: there’s hardly any sport in it.
But how can you resist? Especially if you take into account the hundreds (yes, hundreds) of millions of Euros the Ministry has spent on a money pit of a national tourism website (with ugly, shameful translations in a half-dozen languages) and on publicity campaigns like these.
Magic Italy in Tour: Four words in English. Two of them are wrong.
http://inglisc.wordpress.com/the-gallery-of-wrongness/the-gallery-of-wrongness-15/
Magic Italy in Tour: Caffè Haiti Roma represents the Italian products of excellence
During these months Caffè Haiti Roma is taking part to a very important event for spreading the knowledge of Italian culture: Magic Italy in Tour, this is the name of the project, is hosted by the Italian Department for Environmental Food and Rural Affairs, through Buonitalia Spa and the Italian Ministry of Tourism, and aims at giving both cultural and economic value to Italy.
The perfect organization gives us the opportunity to be awaited in the places of destinations by the many buyers, distributors and restaurant keepers who, wishing to sit in a typical Italian restaurant and to let themselves be carried away by the smells and the colours of our Italian products, will be offered the hospitality in an open space set up for four days in the squares of the main European capital cities.
http://www.caffehaitiroma.it/en/news/72 ▲ Collapse
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 13:15
Chinesisch > Englisch
| Great article by Ricketts | Mar 4, 2012 |
Puts the issue very clearly.
I think there's some confusion in this thread between two issues:
1) What is the ideal way to translate?
2) What is the best way to translate in a given real situation?
The answer to (1) is, IMO: a subject specialist native in the target language who has learned their source language properly. (Possibly a bilingual person, but I'm not convinced that's necessary.)
But in many cases that person isn't available. So we h... See more Puts the issue very clearly.
I think there's some confusion in this thread between two issues:
1) What is the ideal way to translate?
2) What is the best way to translate in a given real situation?
The answer to (1) is, IMO: a subject specialist native in the target language who has learned their source language properly. (Possibly a bilingual person, but I'm not convinced that's necessary.)
But in many cases that person isn't available. So we have to look at the pool of translators available to us and work out which of the second choices is the best second choice. Sometimes the answer will be a source-native subject specialist; more often, I think, it will be a target-native professional translator. I add the word professional here to emphasise that this is someone who will go out of their way to ensure they get terminology right, even if it isn't their personal subject area.
Of course, experience varies. As a target-native, I'm called in to fix botched jobs by source-natives with some regularity. For those here who translate into their second language, the experience will likely be reversed: they are needed when no English speaker can be found who understands the source text. So there's plenty of room for us to argue over the answer to question (2).
But my feeling is that the answer to (1) is not up for debate. This question was answered, decisively, long ago, wasn't it? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexiko
Local time: 23:15
Deutsch > Englisch
Cowboy: an unscrupulous or unqualified tradesman – Oxford Concise Dictionary
Austrian cowboys
Großarl’s highest hotel offers you all heartiness and cordial hospitality of a family run business – and perfect service to accompany your summer holiday or winter sports vacation.
Magnificent mountains, a great number of diversified ski slopes, and state of the art ski lifts are what make out the ski region Großarltal-Dorfgastein and Ski Amadé.
... See more Cowboy: an unscrupulous or unqualified tradesman – Oxford Concise Dictionary
Austrian cowboys
Großarl’s highest hotel offers you all heartiness and cordial hospitality of a family run business – and perfect service to accompany your summer holiday or winter sports vacation.
Magnificent mountains, a great number of diversified ski slopes, and state of the art ski lifts are what make out the ski region Großarltal-Dorfgastein and Ski Amadé.
After an extensive renovation, our Hotel und Berggasthaus Alpenklang disposes now of 21 new rooms that present all comfort.
The park is a centre point for all snowboard freaks and fans, and is challenging even for most proficient snowboarders.
The 900-year-old Hohenwerfen Fortress towers reside high above the Salzach Valley in the South of Salzburg and can be clearly seen from far distance.
The salt found in Dürrnbergs bei Hallein lended the city and region of Salzburg its name. White gold' was being mined here as early as the time of the Celts about 1.000 years up to 50 years BC and was a most popular merchandise throughout the centuries. This is a pleasant travel in time for young and old alike based on the story of salt mining in Austria.
Alpenklang Restaurant ...
Make your choice from our extensive menu card!
Families are best taken care of at Alpenklang ...
http://www.alpenklang.info/hotel-grossarl/Article/ID/72/Session/1-M4HWPaqX-1-IP/Skiing_Snowboarding.htm
Dutch cowboys
Shopaholics can eat their hart out in Scheveningen. The boulevard offers the most touristic kind of shops. Whilst the Palace Promenade and the Keizerstraat gives a wider shopping selection. Do realize that the prices might be slightly higher on the boulevard then in the regular shops. Grab that shopping bag and shop till you drop!
In March a huge transformation takes place on the beach. More than 35 beach clubs are build up and give a completely different view of the coast. All beach clubs are made ready for the rest of the summer season. Make sure to stroll alongside the boulevard to find you ideal beach club. More than enough choice. All beach clubs open around 12:00 and close at 00:30. Check out below the hottest beach clubs Scheveningen has to offer.
City pier city run - if you like running go to the city pier city run is your event to attend. You run from the city to the pier (dock) and back again. Experienced runners should only try to attempt this run.
http://scheveningenbeach.com/en ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 05:15
Portugiesisch > Englisch
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THEMENSTARTER | By way of illustration only | Mar 5, 2012 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
"Criticizing the Italian Ministry of Tourism for its embarrassing, amateurish, ham-handed publicity efforts is a little like shooting fish in a barrel: there’s hardly any sport in it.
You're right Kim, Italy is an easy target, but possibly unfair too as it does not make claims to have large numbers of bilingual English speakers in the same way that many northern Europe countries do. This is by no means intended to be taken personally by anyone - please. It is simply to illustrate what we are trying to convey. No English person would ever write like this:
"The easy going attitude and the feel free mentality makes Denmark a great place to recharge. The relaxed locals will help you feel welcome.
In Denmark you are never more than 1 hour away from miles of wide sandy beaches. Relax and feel free
Holiday the Danish way and stay in a holiday cottage by the sea or one of the fjords. Cook fresh seafood and just enjoy.
Stay at charming inns or castel hotels and explore the picturesque country side and small towns of Denmark
Copenhagen Gastronomy offers everything from Michelin star dining to more affordable options. All are delicious."
(Extract taken from the Danish tourist board website)
I didn't have to look too hard, this was the very first thing I clicked on. Just a few more moments spent browsing would suggest that there's plenty more where that came from.
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