| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3] > | Happy Anniversary! Initiator des Themas: Sormane Fitzgerald
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Astrid Elke Witte 
Deutschland
Local time: 08:58
Mitglied (2002)
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
| Give and take | Jun 7, 2006 |
As far as I am concerned, it is very difficult to define give and take when talking about the subject of Kudoz questions.
I sometimes ask about terms that have not been translated anywhere before, and that may not be too surprising if I am always translating about new inventions. Of course, it would be my responsibility to coin new terms myself, if that is what is required, but sometimes someone else has a better idea. I personally always consider that I am contributing to the gloss... See more As far as I am concerned, it is very difficult to define give and take when talking about the subject of Kudoz questions.
I sometimes ask about terms that have not been translated anywhere before, and that may not be too surprising if I am always translating about new inventions. Of course, it would be my responsibility to coin new terms myself, if that is what is required, but sometimes someone else has a better idea. I personally always consider that I am contributing to the glossary in some way by registering such terms as Kudoz questions.
However, I agree that hundreds of questions that a pocket dictionary could answer would not really contribute to the specialised glossary we are creating on Proz.
Astrid ▲ Collapse
| | | | Maria Karra
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 02:58
Mitglied (2000)
Griechisch > Englisch
+ ...
| what can be done | Jun 7, 2006 |
Hi Sormane,
I would like to know how others feel about this. Thanks.
I personally find it unprofessional to ask many terms from the same text, especially if the terms are easy and can indeed be found in a pocket dictionary. I also consider it disrespectful towards other members because if the asker doesn't take the time to look them up, to me this means that he considers his time more valuable than ours. Of course there are exceptions, we often have very tight deadlines and we don't have time to do any research and we may be stuck even on the simplest of terms. But here we're talking about an extreme case (questions from the same text asked every day for a year). So that's how I feel about this: I find it disrespectful and unprofessional.
Having said that, I would not encourage you to write to the asker. Let me remind everyone of the following KudoZ rule:
Commentary on askers or answerers, and their postings or decisions to post, is not allowed. Comments or insinuations concerning an answerer's or asker's experience or profile, his/her decision to post a certain question
e strictly prohibited (whether posted publicly, made directly to the person in question, or made to another site user).
http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.7#3.7
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So you were right not to mention any names or give any links, because that's not allowed.
On the other hand, we also have this rule:
KudoZ should be used for requesting terms help only after other resources have been exhausted. Resources available include the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > ProZ.com Term Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines, etc. If translations are found elsewhere and the decision to post a KudoZ question is made nevertheless, information found elsewhere should be included, along with an explanation of what further information is sought.
http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_asking/2.1#2.1
If you believe that someone consistently violates this rule, please contact a KudoZ moderator. Be as specific as you can when you do this, give examples of questions asked by that member. (In other words, don't just tell the moderator that member X violates kudoz rules because he asks easy questions every day. Give links to the questions. E.g. Member X consistently violates KudoZ rule Y because he's been asking easy questions from the same text every day for the last 5 months: e.g. question A1 on date B1, question A2 on date B2, etc.).
The moderator can use this specific information to easily determine what action should be taken, if any, and also when contacting that member to explain that admin action.
Maria
| | | | | To Maria Karra | Jun 7, 2006 |
Maria Karra wrote:
Having said that, I would not encourage you to write to the asker. Let me remind everyone of the following KudoZ rule:
Commentary on askers or answerers, and their postings or decisions to post, is not allowed. Comments or insinuations concerning an answerer's or asker's experience or profile, his/her decision to post a certain question
e strictly prohibited (whether posted publicly, made directly to the person in question, or made to another site user).
http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.7#3.7
Hi María,
Does this rule also apply to the "ask the asker function"? Is it possible - or is it not - to ask the asker is he/she is abussing the system, or if she/he has already ckecked other sources (like glossaries, dictionaries)?
I mean, maybe the asker is anaware of these rules and thinks it is ok to use Proz as an online fee human dictionary.
Best,
Walter
| | | | Maria Karra
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 02:58
Mitglied (2000)
Griechisch > Englisch
+ ...
| To Walter: about Ask the asker | Jun 7, 2006 |
Walter Landesman wrote:
Does this rule also apply to the "ask the asker function"? Is it possible - or is it not - to ask the asker is he/she is abussing the system, or if she/he has already ckecked other sources (like glossaries, dictionaries)?
I mean, maybe the asker is anaware of these rules and thinks it is ok to use Proz as an online fee human dictionary.
Hola Walter
The 'ask the asker' field should only be used to request information about the question.
I have to quote another rule here:
1.3. Text boxes may be used only for their intended purposes. For example: The "Ask the Asker" box makes it possible to ask for additional information concerning a question or its context.
se of the above form fields for purposes other than those described is prohibited.
http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_general/1.3#1.3
[/quote]
I do understand your frustration and I know you are looking for the right way to let the asker know he's abusing the system and members' patience. But that's why KudoZ moderators are here. If you let us know that someone seems to be unaware of ProZ rules, we'll remind them and we'll help them understand how to use the system.
Maria
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| Ask the asker | Jun 7, 2006 |
Ok, María.
Thanks for answering.
Walter
| | | | | Filter off anyone who annoys you (see your KudoZ dashboard) | Jun 7, 2006 |
There is a very simple solution to this problem at a personal level - if anyone annoys you, then filter that person so that you do not see his/her mails or KudoZ questions.
It will not stop anyone from using the site, and 'points grabbers' will still be able to score from their questions, but does it really matter, if they don't waste YOUR time?
We've all been beginners once, and this anniversary does seem quite incredible - I don't know enough Spanish to guess who is '... See more
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexiko
Local time: 00:58
Deutsch > Englisch
| Communicating with askers | Jun 7, 2006 |
Walter Landesman wrote:
Does this rule also apply to the "ask the asker function"? Is it possible - or is it not - to ask the asker is he/she is abussing the system, or if she/he has already ckecked other sources (like glossaries, dictionaries)?
I mean, maybe the asker is unaware of these rules and thinks it is ok to use Proz as an online fee human dictionary.
Hi Walter - I'd like to reiterate what Maria said about the ask-the-asker box: its purpose is to seek clarification about the question or its context. And I also concur with Maria that the best place to voice concerns about askers and answerers is with the KudoZ moderators.
On the other hand, I understand your desire to communicate directly with some askers regarding site rules. I believe members need a way to help each other become better KudoZ users. See related thread:
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”—Author unknown
http://www.proz.com/topic/48851
I have been thinking about a new feature for KudoZ I'm provisionally calling the "brainstorming box" where members could give newbies helpful advice on researching, providing context, not closing questions two minutes after getting the first answer etc.
It could be for general research advice: it's already in the glossary, try such and such search method, enter * * before and after term, be careful about revealing confidential info (recommend you delete name of patient), please don't close your questions so quickly, have you tried such and such? In other words, helping new translators improve and become true members of the community.
[Edited at 2006-06-07 19:47]
| | | | Monika Coulson
Local time: 00:58
Mitglied (2001)
Englisch > Albanisch
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SITE LOCALIZER | Maria has a perfect point | Jun 7, 2006 |
Please let the Moderator know about this specific case. He/she/they should take care of this frustration. Luckily, we do not have a similar case in our community now. We used to have some similar (sporadic) some in the past and our members communicated their frustration directly to the asker/s and the mod and things were normalized.
Monika
If you believe that someone consistently violates this rule, please contact a KudoZ moderator. Be as specific as you can when you do this, give examples of questions asked by that member. (In other words, don't just tell the moderator that member X violates kudoz rules because he asks easy questions every day. Give links to the questions. E.g. Member X consistently violates KudoZ rule Y because he's been asking easy questions from the same text every day for the last 5 months: e.g. question A1 on date B1, question A2 on date B2, etc.).
The moderator can use this specific information to easily determine what action should be taken, if any, and also when contacting that member to explain that admin action.
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Lia Fail (X)
Spanien
Local time: 08:58
Spanisch > Englisch
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| what it's not | Jun 7, 2006 |
Walter Landesman wrote:
LegalText wrote:
Kudoz is a great resource for translators. If you require people to answer 5 questions in return for asking 10 (just as an example), then I don't think this will improve the quality of the glossaries.
If somebody asks 3000 questions that could have easily been answered by consulting a dictionary, I don't see why it is desirable to force the very same person to answer questions. I don't think this could improve the quality of Kudoz.
Good point. That is not the way to stop abusers.
It's not about 'forcing' them to answers questions, it's about reducing the number of questions they ask that maybe they could find answers for in other ways.
It's not about blocking them in any way, unless they are really abusive, it's about making people more aware of what they do - and don't do. I bet that many of the people that maybe do ask far more than they contribute simply need a gentle reminder......
It's about making people conscious of a need for balance and proportion in all things, in what you get and what you receive.
And it's about translators going off and learning to research instead of taking teh easy way out...teach someone to fish..
It's about making the site more professional. The questions limit caused a great deal of controversy in its day but the site is the better for it.
| | | | Sormane Fitzgerald
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 02:58
Portugiesisch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER
Lia Fail wrote:
It's not about 'forcing' them to answers questions, it's about reducing the number of questions they ask that maybe they could find answers for in other ways.
It's not about blocking them in any way, unless they are really abusive, it's about making people more aware of what they do - and don't do. I bet that many of the people that maybe do ask far more than they contribute simply need a gentle reminder......
It's about making people conscious of a need for balance and proportion in all things, in what you get and what you receive.
And it's about translators going off and learning to research instead of taking teh easy way out...teach someone to fish..
It's about making the site more professional. The questions limit caused a great deal of controversy in its day but the site is the better for it.
That's exactly my point!
Sormane F. Gomes
| | | | | The downward spiral | Jun 7, 2006 |
In my pair, Fr-Eng, most of the good, reliable answerers appear to have vanished, except for 2 or 3. At the same time, the number of relatively straightforward questions asked continues to rise, from both new people and 'regulars' alike.
My main issue with abuse and 'taking advantage' of the system is that the list of questions becomes so long that it's hard to spot the interesting questions. I used to look at almost every question, and regularly add entries to my personal glossary ... See more In my pair, Fr-Eng, most of the good, reliable answerers appear to have vanished, except for 2 or 3. At the same time, the number of relatively straightforward questions asked continues to rise, from both new people and 'regulars' alike.
My main issue with abuse and 'taking advantage' of the system is that the list of questions becomes so long that it's hard to spot the interesting questions. I used to look at almost every question, and regularly add entries to my personal glossary "just in case" - that's just not practical now (plus which, as I said, the knowledgeable people have largely vanished from the site anway).
The trouble with abuse and taking advantage, as has been discussed countless times, is that it is very difficult to quantify. I sometimes feel that, as a counterpart to the "good question" button, there should be a "bad question" button, which could be used to send an (anonymous) one-line email to the asker, or possibly (and more publicly) to add a one-line statement on the question page along the lines of "x people think this question is unnecessary".
As for those that just take without giving, then yes, I think the only way round this is to make the statistics (asked versus answered, and kudoz and brownie points) more obvious, to give answerers a chance to assess whether they would really like to help the individual. Meanwhile, I, along, it would appear, with many other people, having simply more or less stopped answering. Anyone.
As for the issue of simple questions, I think the advent of wikiwords will probably stop anything ever being done. The site needs as many translations as possible that it can just load into wikiwords when the time comes, so the more people asking for translations of "hedgehog" or "spark plug", the better, as far as Henry et al are concerned.
French to English kudoz, R.I.P. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I have already complained about this overuse | Jun 8, 2006 |
Last week I complained abot people who overuse ProZ. most of the answers were to flag or ignore these questions.
( Poll: At what stage in a translation do you ask KudoZ questions?)
I specifically mentioned three situations in which questions should not be allowed:
- these have previously been answered at KudoZ,
- they are easily found in Internet, or
- they are posted with no information or context to help colleagues.
The answers I got widely range f... See more Last week I complained abot people who overuse ProZ. most of the answers were to flag or ignore these questions.
( Poll: At what stage in a translation do you ask KudoZ questions?)
I specifically mentioned three situations in which questions should not be allowed:
- these have previously been answered at KudoZ,
- they are easily found in Internet, or
- they are posted with no information or context to help colleagues.
The answers I got widely range from the common ignore that person or almost impossible to do that, For example:
"Not receiving all those email notifications is an option. Ignoring questions is also an option. As is showing tolerance and trying not to be judgmental of askers. While there may be those who try to take advantage, there also are plenty of those who post legitimate KudoZ questions. An Asker has a right to do so without having his/her motives always be so suspect. "
Regarding the ratio questions asked/answered, I read in that poll that by passing the mouse over the asker's name will show:
- amount of questions asked
- amount of asked questions that remain open
- amount of questions anwered
In conclusion, I really think we have to ignore those people who believe that collaboration means to do their work. ▲ Collapse
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I have been around KudoZ long enough to be able to recognize these. I simply don't answer any questions - asked by a member or a non-member - that I know are easily found in a dictionary.
As for people who "abuse", I end up remebering them and I also simply avoid them. I am willing to be nice and help people, and it is often a pleasure, but I am not a sucker and I will definitely not do someone else's homework for free.
If everyone avoided these questions, eventually, t... See more I have been around KudoZ long enough to be able to recognize these. I simply don't answer any questions - asked by a member or a non-member - that I know are easily found in a dictionary.
As for people who "abuse", I end up remebering them and I also simply avoid them. I am willing to be nice and help people, and it is often a pleasure, but I am not a sucker and I will definitely not do someone else's homework for free.
If everyone avoided these questions, eventually, those who are behaving rather shamefully will end up getting the message.
By the way, I think it should be mandatory to become a member in order to ask KudoZ - with just a free membership, at least. I also find that ProZ, by saying something along the lines of "get your terms translated by professional translators - free" openly on the site is actually, even if unintentionally, inviting the over ambitious people in to take advantage of people with good intentions like most of us. What a pity! ▲ Collapse
| | | | | How to stop the downward spiral | Jun 8, 2006 |
First of all, let me say that I fully and wholeheartedly agree with everything that Victoria Gimbe has written in her post. If we all avoided the "pocket dictionary" and "abusive" questions, nobody would be answering them before too long, and "abusers" would be compelled to find other "victims".
Two sentences in Charlie's post struck me as ...well... somewhat contradictory:
Charlie Bavington wrote:
In my pair, Fr-Eng, most of the good, reliable answerers appear to have vanished, except for 2 or 3...
Meanwhile, I, along, it would appear, with many other people, having simply more or less stopped answering. Anyone...
On the one hand, you complain that good answerers have vanished, but on the other hand you have stopped answering questions yourself. If we all do that, the downward spiral will continue until it has reached the bottom, i.e. all the good people will have left Proz, and the quality of questions asked and answers given will be - more or less - on "pocket dictionary" level.
In my opinion, it is important to use the power of judgement that we all (hopefully) have, not to be "points grabbers", to answer the "good" questions, and to ignore "pocket dictionary questions" and those askers who just "use" us to do their work for them.
Proz.com is a great site, and the quality of my work has improved tremendously because of it. It would be a shame if we allowed it to sink into mediocrity.
| | | | | Fair point :-) | Jun 8, 2006 |
Yup, LittleBalu, you have a point
The point is really that you need a "critical mass" of good, reliable answerers, and Proz no longer has that in my pair. Whereas it used to. Which means, from an admittedly possibly selfish point of view, that if I need to ask I question, the chances of me getting a good answer are now low. So why should I contribute to others producing decent translations, when the favour isn't going... See more Yup, LittleBalu, you have a point
The point is really that you need a "critical mass" of good, reliable answerers, and Proz no longer has that in my pair. Whereas it used to. Which means, from an admittedly possibly selfish point of view, that if I need to ask I question, the chances of me getting a good answer are now low. So why should I contribute to others producing decent translations, when the favour isn't going to be returned?
I actually also genuinely feel that wikiwords is now the main interest for those running this site, in terms of building a terminology database, and they couldn't care less what happens to kudoz in terms of quality as long as the volume is there. ▲ Collapse
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