Björn Vrooman Oct 3, 2014:

@Olaf I don't know what the rest of the text says, but it looks to me as if you have slightly misinterpreted the last paragraph.

"Eine nationale Armutspolitik im eigentlichen Sinne gibt es nicht, weil eine nationale Armutskennziffer fehlt. Stattdessen können wir nur von kantonaler und kommunaler Armutspolitik sprechen, bzw. von bekämpfter Armut als Armutspolitik im engeren Sinne."

What the author apparently wants to say is that Switzerland has no national poverty reduction policy as can be found in other European states, because there are no national statistics on how many people in Switzerland are actually poor. So, you're only left with policies at cantonal and municipal level or, in other words, with a very narrow definition of poverty reduction, in that the "policies" merely consist of granting welfare assistance to people who apply for it.

The author speaks of "bekämpfter Armut" here because above all, Switzerland's solution to poverty is giving out money to people who are needy and ask for it. That's it - that's basically their entire policy (so I put it in quotation marks).

Corroborated by preceding paragraph: "kein allgemeiner Rechtsanspruch"/"Nicht alle[...]beantragen"

Björn Vrooman Oct 3, 2014:

Simple breakdown You are poor.

You don't apply for welfare benefits = you don't get assistance = your poverty is "verdeckt" (hidden) = government is not registering you as poor

You apply for welfare benefits = you receive welfare payments = your "poverty" is "bekämpft" (mitigated/prevented)

You apply for benefits = you don't get assistance = government thinks you have enough money = not (!) included in either term

@Ramey Agree with you, however, on the other two issues: Not "war on poverty" (that's much too active in its function) and not "rate" (proportions are not synonymous with rates).

Björn Vrooman Oct 3, 2014:

@Ramey "die" in "die das Ziel haben" refers to "Transferzahlungen", not to "bekämpfte Armut"!

"Bekämpfte Armut" is "Er" = "Begriff der" in the second sentence and means:
"die Anzahl der Unterstützungsempfänger solcher staatlicher Transferzahlungen"
= number of welfare recipients

The transfer payments are intended to:
"Armut zu verhindern, indem sie einen Mindestsicherungsbedarf abdecken."
= prevent(not reduce!) poverty by providing a "safety net"

Rough translation of the sentence:
The term "bekämpfte Armut" refers to the number of people receiving public welfare payments intended to prevent poverty by providing a minimum standard of living.

The "statement of intent" is a general one. It's the purpose of these payments to prevent poverty in the first place, not reduce it. And they are already being paid out and provide this minimum level of assistance.

Thus, there is no ongoing process, they are not grappling with anything either.

They are not even making efforts to reduce the number of recipients, as you can see from the last sentence of the same paragraph:
"Bekämpfte Armut ist damit gleichzusetzen mit 'behördlich wahrgenommener Armut'."

Ramey Rieger (X) Oct 3, 2014:

@Björn In your German links, one sentence jumps out at me - die das Ziel haben, Armut zu verhindern - it's an aim, not a conclusion.

Ramey Rieger (X) Oct 3, 2014:

@Olaf That's a good way of getting aroung the issue! I would maybe put the 'therefore' at the beginning of the sentence, but that's a matter of taste.

Björn Vrooman Oct 2, 2014:

Just an idea... ... (berechnet aus dem Anteil der Sozialhilfeempfänger zur gesamten Bevölkerung) gibt ***die offiziell bekämpfte Armutsquote*** wieder.

...(the number of welfare recipients divided by the total population) shows the proportion of the population officially receiving government assistance to live a life above the poverty line.

Björn Vrooman Oct 2, 2014:

Just to add to the confusion: Die Begriffe "Quote" und "Rate" werden in Politik, Wirtschaft und Journalismus oft völlig willkürlich verwendet. [...]
So wird z.B. oft von der "Arbeitslosenrate" gesprochen obgleich es sich dabei um eine Quote handelt. Oder die sog. "Belastungsquote" (vgl. Übers. 9.2) ist keine Quote, sondern eine Beziehungszahl.

Quoten sind stets Gliederungszahlen, wobei der Zähler eine echte Teilmenge des Nenners sein muss und "Raten" sind Beziehungszahlen. In diesem Sinne sind z.B. auch die Schuldenquote (Schuldenstand/Sozialprodukt) oder die Scheidungsquote (vgl. Bsp. 9.2) keine echten Quoten. Besonders inflationär wird der Begriff "Quote" bei betriebswirtschaftlichen Kennzahlen oder in der Finanzstatistik verwendet (z.B. Schuldendienstquote = Ausgaben für den Schuldendienst/Staatseinnahmen).
http://www.von-der-lippe.org/dokumente/buch/BUCH09.pdf

See also page 8 on there, where you can see the total confusion created by the chaotic use of "Quote" and "Rate".

That means "rate" is also incorrect. See:
http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/a3121120.nsf/home/statistic...
http://www.med.uottawa.ca/sim/data/Epidemiology_rates_e.htm
The statistical term is proportion.

Björn Vrooman Oct 2, 2014:

"Almost everyone agrees that poverty alleviation should be the paramount goal of development assistance. But what do we mean by poverty alleviation? Is it helping the very poorest of the poor achieve a better quality of life? Or is it enabling the largest number of people to get above the poverty line? [...]Even the U.K.’s focus on poverty alleviation as the overarching goal for development assistance and fairly precise definition of terms masks a complex set of choices and trade-offs."
http://notes.bread.org/2009/05/what-do-we-mean-by-poverty-al...

This link also used "poverty reduction", but I'd say for the strategies as explained below.

Björn Vrooman Oct 2, 2014:

Link continued... ...Poverty reduction usually refers to strategies and policies that reduce the number or percentage of people living in poverty or the severity of the impact of poverty on the lives of poor people."
http://www.nda.org.za/docs/what do we mean by poverty.pdf

The UK term for "poverty relief" is "welfare assistance", used to be known as Community Care:
http://www.wirral.gov.uk/my-services/advice-and-benefits/ben...

Honestly, I can't see a "strategy" behind "bekämpfter Armut". It's not a process, but a state.

It literally means, based on Johanna's suggestion: "the proportion/percentage of the population perceived by the government as requiring and already receiving social welfare services because of the recipients' official applications"

Björn Vrooman Oct 2, 2014:

Poverty relief refers to policies and interventions that seek to give short term assistance to a person who are living in poverty, and is usually linked to some external shock that pushes people into a more severe state of vulnerability than before. It is accordingly often seen as ―emergency relief‖. Examples of these programmes include the Department of Social Development‘s short term ―Social Relief of Distress Grant‖, as well as food parcels and drought or flood relief. These policies are not intended primarily to be developmental, but to give aid to address immediate needs[...]
Poverty alleviation also aims to reduce the negative impact of poverty on the lives of poor people, but in a more sustained and permanent way than poverty relief programmes. It includes the state‘s social grant programmes which alleviate the impact of poverty for many people. Poverty alleviation programmes tend to have longer term goals and are in general more developmental than Poverty Relief programmes. Thus the state‘s social grant policies both provide immediate relief for poor people, but have also been found to provide a developmental stimulus by empowering people to look for jobs[...]

Björn Vrooman Oct 2, 2014:

@Olaf Just give me a few minutes maybe. After all, that's my field of studies (even though Armutssoziologie was not my preferred topic), maybe I can still dig up something.

Although I like the first part of Johanna's sentence, I don't think "poverty reduction" is adequate here. See:

https://www.imf.org/external/np/exr/facts/prsp.htm
http://www.undp.org/content/undp/en/home/ourwork/povertyredu...

Poverty reduction is more like "help to help yourself" or these "trickle-down efforts" by changing economic policy and the like, which is why, again, I suggested "alleviation" below because that better illustrates that this is a government effort to grant money, so people aren't considered poor anymore. Sozialhilfe has little to do with the aforementioned, IMO.

Olaf Reibedanz (asker) Oct 2, 2014:

Thanks a lot everybody for your input! I have one more idea:

ENG: Eine nationale Armutspolitik im eigentlichen Sinne gibt es nicht, weil eine nationale Armutskennziffer fehlt. Stattdessen können wir nur von kantonaler und kommunaler Armutspolitik sprechen, bzw. von bekämpfter Armut als Armutspolitik im engeren Sinne.

GER: Strictly speaking, Switzerland has no national poverty policy, because there is no national poverty index. Instead of a formally laid out national poverty policy, we should therefore speak of a loose set of poverty reduction efforts at the cantonal and communal levels.

What do you think?

Björn Vrooman Oct 2, 2014:

"Der Begriff der bekämpften Armut entstammt keinem theoretischen Armutskonzept, sondern ist vielmehr eine Bezeichnung, die vor dem Hintergrund sozialpolitischer Maßnahmen entstanden ist. Mit dem Begriff der bekämpften Armut sind alle Personen gemeint, die sozialstaatliche Leistungen wie Sozialhilfe oder Grundsicherung für Arbeitssuchende beziehen und aufgrund dessen 'als von der Armut "befreit" gelten[...]'. Das Ausmaß der ‚bekämpften’ Armut entspricht also der Zahl derjenigen, die vorübergehend oder dauerhaft Sozialhilfe oder andere staatliche Alimentierungen erhalten und gesetzesdefinitorisch ohne diese Hilfen ‚arm’ wären.“ (Dietz, 1997, 92)."
http://www.bildung.uni-siegen.de/mitarbeiter/wolf/files/down...

So, yes: just as I thought. It's all about statistics. Not just addressed or dealt with: "befreit" definitely means it's been done already. "bekämpft" means that the people receiving the benefits are "pushed over" the poverty line, so they're out of the government's statistics on poverty.

Björn Vrooman Oct 2, 2014:

@Ramey and Johanna Found German references:

"Bekämpfte Armut ist ein fester Begriff der Armutsforschung. Er bezeichnet die Anzahl der Unterstützungsempfänger solcher staatlicher Transferzahlungen, die das Ziel haben, Armut zu verhindern, indem sie einen Mindestsicherungsbedarf abdecken. Damit soll eine Lebensführung und Teilhabe auf gesellschaftlich akzeptiertem Niveau ermöglicht werden. Bekämpfte Armut ist damit gleichzusetzen mit 'behördlich wahrgenommener Armut'. (vgl. HSBN 2011, Seite 24)"
http://www.sozialberichterstattung-niedersachsen.de/index.cf...
http://www.regsam.net/downloads/8.pdf
http://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/bst/de/media/xcms_bst_dms...

"Die traditionelle Konzeption von Armut bzw. Deprivation basiert auf einer ökonomisch-materiellen Betrachtungsweise (Einkommensarmut). Es wird davon ausgegangen, dass ein ausreichendes Einkommen genügt, um die individuellen Bedürfnisse zu sichern und so die betroffenen Personen und Haushalte einer Armutsdefinition zu entziehen."
http://www.krimlex.de/artikel.php?BUCHSTABE=&KL_ID=20

So, in a way, we're all right and all wrong :)

Björn Vrooman Oct 2, 2014:

Hi Johanna :)

That's an interesting option! A question to you: Wouldn't you use another German verb when saying confront/deal with/address? I'm trying desperately to come up with it.

Björn Vrooman Oct 2, 2014:

Going too far...?

alleviation:
Make (suffering, deficiency, or a problem) less severe
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/allevia...

That's not even half-remedied :) What more can you ask for?

On a side note: "to be dealt with" would be wrong: that's "zu bekämpfende"

Johanna Timm, PhD Oct 2, 2014:

Björn how about "the proportion/percentage of the population that is currently being addressed by poverty reduction/relief programs"?

Ramey Rieger (X) Oct 2, 2014:

Not really :-) I think it's going too far. "The number of welfare recipients nationwide reflects the level of poverty addressed/to be dealt with/to be confronted." Without more convincing arguments, I'm sticking to my original idea.

Björn Vrooman Oct 2, 2014:

@Ramey "I don't believe 'bekämpfte' implies that it is remedied/mitigated"

In my opinion, it does. See my earlier Swiss references:
"Personen, die Sozialhilfe beziehen («bekämpfte Armut»)"

The antonym is "verdeckte Armut":
"Diese nicht bekämpfte Armut besteht dann, wenn Bedürftige ihren Hilfeanspruch nicht geltend machen."

As I said, it's a typical euphemism: Someone gets a welfare payment, so he's no longer poor.

"implies there is a dialogue, an on-going process"
That's what I don't see. I can't detect any crictism as Michael does and I don't know what you mean by "questions the poverty level". To me, the first sentence is one of these typical, somewhat dull introductory lines asking whether there are any poor people in Switzerland at all. Then, it goes on to say that it's hard to measure. In fact, it's all about the problems of measuring the number of people receiving welfare.

But I understand your point of view. The challenge here is to figure out what the participle refers to. Compare:

1) Die Krankheit wird bekämpft.
2) Die Krankheit ist bekämpft.

1) is what you describe, 2) is what Phil describes

I suggested "poverty alleviation" - would that be a compromise?

Ramey Rieger (X) Oct 2, 2014:

The article questions the poverty level in Switzerland and the only reference for just how high the poverty level is, is the number of welfare recipients within the entire population.
I don't believe 'bekämpfte' implies that it is remedied/mitigated, but that it is being dealt with/confronted. Remediation, for me, implies it has been taken care of, whereas a response to or confrontation of an issue implies there is a dialogue, an on-going process.

Björn Vrooman Oct 2, 2014:

@Phil and Ramey Two other choices: Poverty alleviation (which is more generic UK, I think, albeit not that strong) or poverty eradication (a UN programme, too).

"I don't see how you can remedy a rate." - Is that the point here, Ramey? The German compound is wrong, as explained below.

"bekämpft" as an adjective cannot appear together with "Quote" as a noun. You're not fighting any share (that is what Quote actually means).

Phil and Ramey, I'd appreciate any input here, because I actually wanted to agree to an answer but then I got thinking: Isn't poverty mitigration rate also Armutsbekämpfungsquote, meaning the rate at which poverty is being mitigated rather than the rate at which poverty mitigation has already been accomplished? Wouldn't you have to write "proportion/share/level of mitigated poverty" or similar here in English as well?

On a side note, Sozialhilfequote would also not be quite correct in German, IMO. It's Quote an Sozialhilfeempfängern. But that's Swiss German for you, apparently - most or all of the links on the first Google pages are from Switzerland.

Ramey Rieger (X) Oct 1, 2014:

I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can remedy a rate. It's either high/low, increasing/decreasing. It is the level of poverty addressed/handled/contended with, or if you must, fought. Just as it is the level/amount of welfare recipients tallied, usually in percentage.

Björn Vrooman Sep 30, 2014:

PS Olaf, didn't "bekampfte Armutsquote" already look suspicious to you?

"bekampfte Landflucht" -> bekämpft refers to "flucht", as it should be
"bekämpfte Armutsquote" -> bekämpft refers to "quote" - good luck with that!

"bekämpft" isn't supposed to refer to "quote" - that makes absolutely no sense. It's the poverty which has already been "fought against" (at least, according to them). Wrong compound.

Björn Vrooman Sep 30, 2014:

@Phil and Olaf Phil, you could have had it much easier by looking for Swiss pages :)

"Bei der Sozialhilfe spricht man auch von der bekämpften Armut, da mit den Leistungen eine aktive Reintegration ins gesellschaftliche und wirtschaft liche Leben angestrebt wird."
http://www.schulden.ch/mm/Sozialhilfe_und_Armutsstatisti_im_...

Even more important, the following paragraph from the same link:
"Personen, die Sozialhilfe beziehen («bekämpfte Armut»).
– Personen, die keine Sozialhilfe beziehen, obwohl sie aufgrund ihres tiefen Einkommens bezugsberechtigt wären («verdeckte Armut»)."

Corroborated by:
"Beziehen bedürftige Personen Sozialhilfe, so wird von bekämpfter Armut gesprochen. Neben der bekämpften Armut existiert aber auch eine verdeckte Armut. Diese nicht bekämpfte Armut besteht dann, wenn Bedürftige ihren Hilfeanspruch nicht geltend machen."
http://www.statistik.zh.ch/internet/justiz_inneres/statistik...

"bekämpfte Armut" simply means "Sozialhilfeempfänger". It's a euphemism. So, whoever wrote Olaf's text just a made a mess out of things. It's not the bureaucrats' fault that the author seemingly didn't get it.

philgoddard Sep 30, 2014:

Horst Huber I feel that of all these comments, you're the only person that has fully understood the meaning of this phrase. I hope you won't think my answer is stealing your idea :-)

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 30, 2014:

Yes, that may well be - I know it is in the States, but I don't feel that 'war' is the correct term in this context.

Donald Jacobson Sep 30, 2014:

@Ramey There is poverty in Switzerland among the mentally ill, disabled, personality disordered, drug addicted, etc. It is not the paradise you think it is. My translation has a distinctly American wording to it, which comes closer than any other wording I've seen offered up so far. In the states we have a "war on poverty." That is the official wording.

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 30, 2014:

I beg to differ with war on poverty in this case The article clearly denotes the lack of officially encountered poverty - this is Switzerland, not Tahiti.

Olaf Reibedanz (asker) Sep 30, 2014:

@Ramey: Thanks a lot for your suggestions! Would you mind posting them as a "normal answer" so that other colleagues can comment on them? That would be great :-)

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 30, 2014:

response to an official response to the poverty level, tht may cover it well.

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 30, 2014:

bekämpfen confront, counteract, contend/wrestle with, struggle against,
combat, engage -

a poverty level officially confronted
a poverty level openly contended with
the offically encountered poverty level

philgoddard Sep 30, 2014:

It sounds like you haven't Googled it - but no, it doesn't mean "recognised". It means the proportion that's being remedied in the form of benefit and other payments. It's possible the term exists only in German - I haven't found an English equivalent.

Ramey Rieger (X) Sep 30, 2014:

Hi Olaf first of all, I would separate the term into two terms - officially confronted and poverty level. And yes, there is a huge difference between recognized and confronted/dealt with/counteracted

Olaf Reibedanz (asker) Sep 30, 2014:

Thanks everybody! So far we have translated it as "officially recognised poverty (rate)". But there seems to be a difference between "anerkennen" (recognise) and "bekämpfen".

Horst Huber (X) Sep 30, 2014:

Even without Google it seems obvious that it refers to the quota of poverty cases that are the object of remedial efforts. Just the usual bureaucratese and its lapses from Sprachlogik.

writeaway Sep 30, 2014:

How have you translated it so far?