| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Could project management be automated for high-quality translations? Thread poster: Edwin den Boer
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Edwin den Boer 
Netherlands
Local time: 10:11
Member (2009)
English to Dutch
TOPIC STARTER
@José and Neil: Interesting answers. I'm not sure how far automation should or could go, but I think experimenting with over-engineering would be useful to see what works in practice and what doesn't. The difference between APM and software like TPBox is that an APM system is able and authorized to make decisions like choosing a translator without human input.
@Elefterios: Sorry to hear you had a bad experience. I'm taking that into account. I'd be reluctant to commit much of my ti... See more @José and Neil: Interesting answers. I'm not sure how far automation should or could go, but I think experimenting with over-engineering would be useful to see what works in practice and what doesn't. The difference between APM and software like TPBox is that an APM system is able and authorized to make decisions like choosing a translator without human input.
@Elefterios: Sorry to hear you had a bad experience. I'm taking that into account. I'd be reluctant to commit much of my time to any agency that didn't guarantee to give me profitable projects.
I'm not talking about machine translation here. I'm a skeptic about MT. I think full artificial intelligence would be needed to produce decent machine translations outside of limited domains. Actually, this might be the best argument for APM: MT sucks and it's still extremely popular. Also, it's not making human translators unemployed but enabling the translation market to grow.
I don't understand why you're afraid of end clients applying the software themselves. What's wrong with working for direct clients? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | People include clients - and they're a real pain! | Jan 12, 2015 |
Tom in London wrote: Maybe we should just do away with people altogether. People get tired. They make mistakes. They're moody. They want to be paid. They have things on their minds. Come to think of it, people just get in the way. Anything we can do to get rid of them must be a step in the right direction.  [Edited at 2015-01-11 13:27 GMT]
People are a real pain. A kind of sub-species, ignorant clients, are among the worst... They simply do not understand deadlines, specialist areas, all the other things Tom mentions.
But they are a necessary evil, or there would not be any need for translation.
Can't we just automate them too, and let the computers get on with it? 
I would simply never work for an agency like that. I have to have a real person to keep me from upsetting both computers and clients.
Some of my favourite agencies have a lot of automation, but I ALWAYS get a personal mail asking me to look at the files and let the PM know whether I want or need any changes, like a longer deadline (if possible). If the system doesn't work PDQ, I can usually get a friendly PM to bypass it and/or fix it...
What's more, these people pay me reasonable rates. I go the extra mile for them now and then, but believe me, they're worth it.
Some PMs regard it as a kind of sport to tame clients and stroke them the right way or whatever they do. I don't have the patience, but one PM told me she did not have the patience to translate! She could handle the most idiotic clients and put them in their place, so they even came back next time they wanted a translation.
I don't really understand people, but I have even more trouble with totally automated systems.
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 03:11
Greek to English
+ ...
| Edwin, depends on how you imagine a translator. | Jan 13, 2015 |
Explaining (I've been living it in the past 3 years):
The PM has a request of 500 words and places it in the machine, thinking "that's small, I'll ask that it be done tomorrow morning". The more qualified translator has the day and night booked, so he could only do it "tomorrow noon". The end client has no problem, but the project manager assumed that everyone is always available.
That's the problem with e-mail business: it's a counter at the deli, where all oth... See more Explaining (I've been living it in the past 3 years):
The PM has a request of 500 words and places it in the machine, thinking "that's small, I'll ask that it be done tomorrow morning". The more qualified translator has the day and night booked, so he could only do it "tomorrow noon". The end client has no problem, but the project manager assumed that everyone is always available.
That's the problem with e-mail business: it's a counter at the deli, where all other customers are invisible. You are the next customer walking in the store, you ask for something to be done, without seeing that there are 50 more people there. Everyone wants to be served right now.
All deadlines nowadays are based on the assumption that the translator was 100% available when the project manager placed it on the machine.
A project comes through the machine at 3.00pm, asking a deadline of 5.00pm, because the manager thought that I had nothing else to do. In reality, I had to work until 1am. So I took it, because "you don't want to lose the client", right? Do you know how many times I had to work until 4-5am in the last three years? At least 3 times per week. I would have produced more words (therefore more money) with an easier schedule, which gives me the opportunity (!) to sleep.
You have to differentiate:
-- Part-time translators (whatever comes is ok)
-- Translators with other sources of income (whatever comes is ok)
-- Full time translators, with their lives depending on their income (they can't chose and they can't say 'no').
For the last category, just imagine: a machine that throws balls at irregular intervals (unpredictable) throughout the week, 24/7, at different speeds. And you have to catch most of them, if not all of them, so that you have income.
You know, even the stock market has a schedule. There is a time for work, there's a time for networking, there's a time for invoices, there's a time for food and sleep. And go out once a year. The part-timers won't care at all, the full timers will have to live according to the machine.
Let's not forget about rates: would I work on a big project for a lesser rate, if I think it's easy? Sure. Does the machine know that? No. That's why it excluded me from the selection process, and I never got to even see the project.
The editors will rate the translators? Ah yes... you know the most common thing in this industry? Here it is: inexperienced cheap editors down-rating the work of professionals in order to "steal" their business. The editor is checked by nobody, he's the Pope.
PS1. My advice to the newcomers? Go work in the public sector, now. You'll get paid better, you'll have vacations, weekends, holidays, free insurance, free pension, much more free time, human interraction at work, and plenty of friends.
PS2. When the 'pitot' tubes (that measure speed) in an airplane clogged by ice at 30,000 feet, the highly sophisticated auto-pilot assumed that the speed was already zero, as if the aircraft was parked, and turned off the engines.
What you' re proposing, is based on a series of wrong assumptions (such as the role of editors, qualification vs. experience, and your system completely eliminates the factor "what the PM knows about the translators").
PS3. You know who designed the most destructive system in the financial industry? Some brilliant people with PhDs in mathematics, hired to construct securities. It worked just fine on the computers... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Edwin den Boer
Netherlands
Local time: 10:11
Member (2009)
English to Dutch
TOPIC STARTER | Not an APM problem | Jan 19, 2015 |
First test: after my test translation was approved, Tolq.com warned me my rate was 'not competitive', until I lowered it to EUR 0.05 just to see what would happen. Then it became 'not very competitive'. The feeling is mutual.
Christine Andersen wrote:
Some PMs regard it as a kind of sport to tame clients and stroke them the right way or whatever they do.
There may still be a role for account managers/salespeople in an APM system. But I think 'computer says no' would also be useful, e.g. not allowing clients to assign 5000 words per day to one translator.
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
That's the problem with e-mail business: it's a counter at the deli, where all other customers are invisible. You are the next customer walking in the store, you ask for something to be done, without seeing that there are 50 more people there. Everyone wants to be served right now.
That's a great metaphor. I'd encourage you to become a writer rather than a civil servant. Don't laugh, there might be more money in writing than in translation.
However, this problem is not unique to automated project management. Traditional PMs also tend to assume you're available, and I've seen an APM system with various urgency levels as well as an option to request an extension. The problem is not being able to refuse any projects. You must be working in a bad market, but refusing projects is a regular part of the planning process for freelancers. I've refused major projects from all of my best clients, and I'm still working after more than 12 years.
The editors will rate the translators? Ah yes... you know the most common thing in this industry? Here it is: inexperienced cheap editors down-rating the work of professionals in order to "steal" their business. The editor is checked by nobody, he's the Pope.
That's not my experience. All editors I worked with had too much professional pride to practice strategic down-rating. Whenever I worked as an external editor for traditional agencies, my work was checked by an internal editor. Translators were not only my competitors, but also co-workers, whose work showed up in matches for my translations and whose opinions taught me useful lessons. I was always happy to find a good translator. The dedicated APM system I worked in had an appeal process (that I never had to use) and all ratings were based on specific errors.
Dear Eleftherios, I don't want to mention this as an argument, but in the context of your experiences, I'm worried by your pessimism and cynicism. Cynicism is one of the symptoms of occupational burn-out (work-related depression). A psychological disease caused by social problems, but risk factors are being conscientious, working hard and never saying no.
If anyone reading this is stressed close to a breaking point, please try to find a better job within or outside of translation. Please don't stop working completely - you may never be able to work again. That's the current consensus among psychologists, and I've seen it happen with my brother and a friend of mine. Luckily, they worked so hard (in a well-paid profession) that they never have to work any more.
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Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:11
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Edwin den Boer wrote:
Companies like Smartling, OneHourTranslation, Tolq, TextMaster and Mytranslation.com are offering automated project management. The system matches clients with translators when they update their website or submit a job on a website. Some of these companies are focusing on dynamic translation of website content, but similar technology is being used for translation of documents. It would be possible for the company to only act as a marketplace, like Uber or Airbnb, but as far as a know they all operate as translation agencies, except Smartling which seems to be more of a software company.
Now in theory, automating the project management aspect of translation could mean that more money would be available to pay translators. But it could also enable bottom-feeders to lower their prices even more, while hiring unqualified freelancers or practicing crowdsourcing.
Does anybody have experience working for one of these companies? Do you receive a higher or lower rate than you receive from regular agencies? Are there other quality concerns?
I have some experience with a similar system dedicated to one end client, and the pay was good, but the system wasn't very sophisticated, so human PMs were still needed to sort out problems like projects not getting accepted by anyone.
A high-quality service of this type would require more than some generic scheduling software. It would be a 'big data' enterprise, although not as close to artificial intelligence as machine translation.
Some aspects to be considered when matching clients, documents and freelancers:
1. The client's priority for a project: speed, quality or price.
2. The rates the client is willing to pay, relative to other clients.
3. The client's prestige or market power.
4. Freelancers' ratings of clients.
5. The client's payment practices.
6. Clients' ratings of freelancers (translators and editors).
7. Freelancers' quality as measured by editors.
8. Freelancers' self-reported expertise or preferences.
9. Freelancers' specialization measured as their relative translation quality for subjects/text types.
10. Freelancers' predicted availability (probably unreliable).
11. Freelancers' rates (different rates depending on speed, time, subject, text type, language pair).
12. Freelancers' seniority (experience with the company, meaning that quality metrics are more reliable).
13. Freelancers' delivery behavior (if speed is a priority, hire only people who deliver quickly and always on time).
14. The document's percentage of TM and MT matches.
15. An estimate of the document's difficulty using other metrics, maybe a 'black box', a neural network calibrated by human ratings or translation time. Metrics like sentence and word length might not be relevant for translation difficulty.
16. The document's text type (e.g., higher price quoted for PDF or PowerPoint).
17. The document's subject matter (as indicated by the client or guessed based on word frequency).
18. Planning reliability ratings for both clients and freelancers.
Note that I'm not a project manager, so my understanding of relevant aspects may be skewed or incomplete.
Such an agency would need a large scale to be effective, because:
a. a lot of software development is required; the system needs to be improved and tweaked continuously.
b. a large database of signed-up freelancers is required, because calling that one Norwegian to Malay translator when you need them would defeat the purpose. Many participating freelancers would probably get little work.
However, as soon as it's reasonably effective, it could take on an unlimited number of clients with very low variable costs.
Sometimes I dream about starting an automated agency myself, but as you see, it's a daunting task.
Hi Edwin,
You missed one. I keep seeing ads pop up here on the site for a new platform (or whatever you'd call it) called "TM-Town", which seems to be very similar to what you sketched. Anyone have any experience with it?
From their website:
"Finding the best translator for your job
TM-Town's patent-pending platform provides translators a means of managing and leveraging their bodies of prior translation work. When you submit a text for translation, TM-Town's proprietary matching technology analyzes the content of the document you need translated and matches it against the work in the system to find you the best translation professional(s) for your job.
Better translation through technology and specialization
When translators work on material within their areas of particular expertise, aided by advanced translation memory technology, they are able to work better and faster (thereby earning more per hour), even as clients benefit from rates per word that are the same or lower as elsewhere.
Know your translator
TM-Town is not an online translation agency, but savvy buyers can use it to obtain translations that are higher in quality and potentially lower in cost than what is available elsewhere on the web. Even for the most challenging material.
See for yourself. Other online translation agencies often mask the identities of the translators doing your translation. On TM-Town you get first-class access to the experts and you know exactly who is doing your translation work."
Please note that I would never use something like this myself. Just thought I'd mention it as it seems relevant to the discussion.
[Edited at 2015-01-20 18:59 GMT]
| | | | | Smartling, you say? | Jan 20, 2015 |
Edwin den Boer wrote:
Companies like Smartling, ....
Smartling's view of the translation market is not one to which I could ever subscribe.
Take a look at slide 40 here: http://www.slideshare.net/Smartling/smartling-ama-contentroi
(you can whizz the scroll bar straight there, you don't have to click 39 times!)
If you're disinclined to do so, it says:
"Do you already buy translation?
Great. You should never pay to translate an identical sentence twice"
Now, as I said on LinkedIn, I'm not a "no discounts ever" radical. I offer them willingly when the circumstances are right, and I even tell direct clients I've got software help me work out the proportion of repetition (repetition of which they are usually well aware).
But neither can I endorse Smartling's view. And if that's the kind of philosophy behind any of the others you mention, you can count me out of them, too
| | | | Edwin den Boer
Netherlands
Local time: 10:11
Member (2009)
English to Dutch
TOPIC STARTER | A new kind of platform | Jan 23, 2015 |
Michael Beijer wrote:
You missed one. I keep seeing ads pop up here on the site for a new platform (or whatever you'd call it) called "TM-Town", which seems to be very similar to what you sketched. Anyone have any experience with it?
Thanks for the tip, Michael, I hadn't noticed these ads. I'm still exploring this market; if anyone knows more examples of APM companies, I'd love to hear them.
I've been wondering what kind of company TM-Town is when it's not an online translation agency. It seems to be a platform that only matches freelancers with clients, like Uber or Airbnb. So they don't take any responsibility for the quality of the translation. They offer proofreading as an option...
TM-Town doesn't have many translators listed on their world map yet, but the rates they charge clients range from $0.08 to $0.45, which is higher than the rates advertised by TextMaster, Gengo and Translated.net.
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Smartling's view of the translation market is not one to which I could ever subscribe.
(...)
"You should never pay to translate an identical sentence twice"
Just to be clear: I'm not endorsing any of these companies, I only mention them as examples. On the other hand, I wouldn't judge Smartling on the basis of one slide, since it only sells tools and doesn't manage translation projects. The quote seems like an overstated way of explaining TM matches to people who don't know anything about CAT technology.
[Edited at 2015-01-23 15:38 GMT]
| | | | ..... (X)
Local time: 17:11
| Re: A new kind of platform | Jan 25, 2015 |
Hi Edwin, I came across this article and thought it might be of interest to you: http://a16z.com/2015/01/22/online-marketplaces/
I think the author makes some good points with respect to guiding principles for an online marketplace (from his time at Ebay):
- Maintain a level playing field where every participant has the opportunity to succeed based on
... See more Hi Edwin, I came across this article and thought it might be of interest to you: http://a16z.com/2015/01/22/online-marketplaces/
I think the author makes some good points with respect to guiding principles for an online marketplace (from his time at Ebay):
- Maintain a level playing field where every participant has the opportunity to succeed based on his or her individual efforts.
- Maintain complete transparency in the marketplace so that participants (especially buyers but sellers too) had perfect information on products and their pricing.
- Focus heavily on safety so the marketplace is as safe as possible to create the trust required on both sides.
- Promote ever-greater economic empowerment for sellers, and create an efficient structure where marketplace fees were at levels that allow sellers to achieve this. (When I was managing eBay, we estimated that over a million sellers earned part or all of their living on our platform.)
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Could project management be automated for high-quality translations?
My personal opinion is that the answer is yes. I think you did a good job of listing the challenges that need to be overcome in your original post on this thread.
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I've been wondering what kind of company TM-Town is when it's not an online translation agency.
Full disclosure - I am the developer at TM-Town. I like to describe TM-Town as a "translation enablement platform". What does that mean? In the simplest sense it is a platform that helps to facilitate translation. One way it does that is by matching clients with translators based on the translator's prior work (i.e. the system compares the text the client needs translated with the actual work products of translators in the system to find the best specialist for the job). More than just job matching, the platform also provides translators with various tools such as:
- Storage of (private) TM's & glossaries
- TM & glossary analytics
- Term extraction
- Automated alignment
- File conversion (TMX, XLIFF, XLS, CSV)
- A centralized place to search, download and share terminology files
With respect to the article I mentioned above, I really agree that transparency is important and I have made it an integral part of TM-Town. Transparency not only in pricing (the rates clients are charged as well as the rates translators earn are both publicly posted), but also transparency down to the translators. You can browse translators and see their language pairs and areas of expertise...not just what they say they are good at, but based on their actual work product. ▲ Collapse
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Edwin den Boer wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
Smartling's view of the translation market is not one to which I could ever subscribe.
(...)
"You should never pay to translate an identical sentence twice"
The quote seems like an overstated way of explaining TM matches to people who don't know anything about CAT technology.
You are free to interpret quotes however you see fit, old chap, naturally. It is, after all, plucked out of context. I would contend however it is more indicative of the firm's overall stance on the issue, a mission statement, if you will.
The author of the slide was praised to the heavens in some quarters for a recent book on translation co-authored with a gentleman who has since let drop his mask and become an unabashed cheerleader for MT. By their friends shall you know them, and all that. Even generously conceding that the intention behind it is as you suggest, one would expect a published author working in the language industry to express herself more carefully. And when push comes to shove, the underlying sentiment would be equally as wrong in my eyes if it came Nelson Mandela, Osama Bin Laden or the bloke next door. The fact it comes from a firm in the translation sector just makes it a bit worse. #sadface#
Have a good week
| | | | | @Kevin Dias, about TM-Town | Apr 9, 2015 |
Kevin Dias wrote: Full disclosure - I am the developer at TM-Town. I like to describe TM-Town as a "translation enablement platform". What does that mean? In the simplest sense it is a platform that helps to facilitate translation. One way it does that is by matching clients with translators based on the translator's prior work (i.e. the system compares the text the client needs translated with the actual work products of translators in the system to find the best specialist for the job). More than just job matching, the platform also provides translators with various tools such as:
- Storage of (private) TM's & glossaries
Sorry in advance if I'm a little bit O.T.
I've just discovered and subscribed TM-Town but I wonder how safe texts storage is. I mean, who can read my translations and how this system can vouch for clients' privacy?
Thanks for details
Silvia
[Edited at 2015-04-09 14:34 GMT]
| | | | ..... (X)
Local time: 17:11
| Privacy and security on TM-Town | Apr 13, 2015 |
Silvia Di Profio wrote:
I've just discovered and subscribed TM-Town but I wonder how safe texts storage is. I mean, who can read my translations and how this system can vouch for clients' privacy?
Thanks for details
Silvia
Hi Silvia,
Any documents you upload to TM-Town (TM files, terminology files, monolingual documents) are automatically private and secure. Only you can view them. The system scans your files to learn your areas of expertise, but the data from your files is never made public. There are 3 pieces of metadata that are made public when you upload a document:
1) The language pairs
2) Any fields of expertise you select for that document
3) The number of translation units of that document
This data is used on your TM-Town public profile to show your areas of expertise. If you are uncomfortable with these 3 pieces of metadata being public there is a way to make a document "hidden" in the document management settings. Again though, the contents of your document are never made public, only you can view them.
To read more about TM-Town's security please see this page: https://www.tm-town.com/security
For more on TM-Town's Terms of Service please see this page: https://www.tm-town.com/terms_of_service
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No experience with that particular kind of thing, but from someone who has coded from age 13 and has a decent feel of what can or cannot be done:
You can't automate too much when high quality and premium service is what you're after. Computers don't have imagination, they aren't creative. They are worse than your accountant. 'Tailored' is normally the opposite of 'automated'. Clever coding can mitigate this, but there are limits. And clever coding requires clever coders, which proba... See more No experience with that particular kind of thing, but from someone who has coded from age 13 and has a decent feel of what can or cannot be done:
You can't automate too much when high quality and premium service is what you're after. Computers don't have imagination, they aren't creative. They are worse than your accountant. 'Tailored' is normally the opposite of 'automated'. Clever coding can mitigate this, but there are limits. And clever coding requires clever coders, which probably means spending money on human work anyway. So why not just get PMs rather than software engineers, coders, code QA'ers, IT support staff etc. (As you're going to need support anyway.)
However, computers obviously have more computing power than human brains, better attention span/multitasking capacity in some regards, and they don't tire or become frustrated or angry, and they don't play favourites. And they usually won't make a mistake and deviate from a correctly written schedule or list of criteria and priorities. They can obviously process complex maths in seconds — the kind of maths a human PM can't wrap his head around.
Hence:
1. When used as a cost-saving measure for high-quality service, it's probably going to backfire.
2. When used to streamline and enhance the selection process, it might work. Preferably with human oversight, at least perhaps a way for the client to veto the assigned translator. In which case the client is the one who fills the PM role to some extent.
[Edited at 2015-04-30 10:18 GMT]
[Edited at 2015-04-30 10:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:11
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Edwin den Boer wrote:
Companies like Smartling, OneHourTranslation, Tolq, TextMaster and Mytranslation.com are offering automated project management. The system matches clients with translators when they update their website or submit a job on a website. ...........
I would be interested to know if anyone here has any experience of working with Textmaster and what it's like.
| | | | Edwin den Boer
Netherlands
Local time: 10:11
Member (2009)
English to Dutch
TOPIC STARTER
Sorry Tom, I didn't try Textmaster. I wouldn't have been paid for a small job, because they have a payment threshold of $65.
I did try Tolq.com in the first quarter of 2015. They had a very basic online editor and terribly low rates.
Later, a well-paying client made me use Smartling as a CAT tool. I wrote a review here, but I can't find it; maybe it was removed for offensive language. To put it politely, it was a clumsy mess. For example, the match percentage was displa... See more Sorry Tom, I didn't try Textmaster. I wouldn't have been paid for a small job, because they have a payment threshold of $65.
I did try Tolq.com in the first quarter of 2015. They had a very basic online editor and terribly low rates.
Later, a well-paying client made me use Smartling as a CAT tool. I wrote a review here, but I can't find it; maybe it was removed for offensive language. To put it politely, it was a clumsy mess. For example, the match percentage was displayed using tiny figures in grey. Sentences were split into separate text boxes for fragments between HTML tags. And you could change the shortcut keys, but this setting wasn't saved after closing the session. But the PMs loved Smartling, because it automatically fetched updates in the source text from the client's website and automatically generated payments. They didn't use it to plan projects.
As for the claim "You should never pay to translate an identical sentence twice", identical sentences were indeed auto-propagated. Only one instance would be sent to the translator. But this only happened if the layout was exactly the same. And Smartling was twitchy about differences in tags. The most serious problem in this regard was finding a UI string you wanted to change in the database. What happened more often was getting a high match, but still having to copy and paste fragments into those text boxes because it didn't recognize the tags.
I signed up early for TM-Town and gave them some feedback. Analyzing your TM is a clever concept and it looks like a well-coded website. Haven't had a job from them yet. I don't think they're good at marketing. Didn't sign up for their search engine Nakodo until today, because I was annoyed by the weekly email reminding me to sign up but giving little information. The name TM-Town sucks. Direct clients will think TM means Transcendental Meditation.
FindCircles.nl is the kind of high-quality intermediary I was hoping to see. Unfortunately, it's only available for the Dutch market. And the concept is inconsistent: on the one hand, they want to give clients the opportunity to select a specific translator for his or her expertise; on the other hand, they want to give translators the option to form a 'circle', a group of translators who share jobs, to increase the chance that one is available.
[Edited at 2016-12-09 08:07 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Edwin den Boer
Netherlands
Local time: 10:11
Member (2009)
English to Dutch
TOPIC STARTER | By comparison | Dec 12, 2016 |
Edwin den Boer wrote:
I didn't try Textmaster. I wouldn't have been paid for a small job, because they have a payment threshold of $65.
A copyright organisation paid me 28 cents for library rights for 2014, because paying everybody automatically was the cheapest option.
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