| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | Proz-bashing on FB and elsewhere Thread poster: neilmac
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Jeff Whittaker 
United States
Local time: 06:18
Spanish to English
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| The question is.... | Apr 27, 2015 |
If ProZ made the arbitrary decision to ban all jobs under .08 a word (like another portal), remove all agency profiles that reportedly pay under that amount, remove all translators that charge less than x.xx, etc., etc. wouldn't that just result in someone else opening another website to fill that void and make the situation even worse since presumably this new website would have little to no moderation or oversight regarding rates or terms and be a haven for bottom feeders, criminals and scam a... See more If ProZ made the arbitrary decision to ban all jobs under .08 a word (like another portal), remove all agency profiles that reportedly pay under that amount, remove all translators that charge less than x.xx, etc., etc. wouldn't that just result in someone else opening another website to fill that void and make the situation even worse since presumably this new website would have little to no moderation or oversight regarding rates or terms and be a haven for bottom feeders, criminals and scam artists?
The way I see it, ProZ, due to its popularity, would make it difficult for such efforts to succeed, and thus serves as a buffer preventing things from going even more wildly out of hand.
One issue that I do consider weird is that fact that unregistered (and non-paying) users can access the KudoZ database like a free professional dictionary.
[Edited at 2015-04-27 15:09 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 06:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Now that is a great idea... | Apr 27, 2015 |
The practical upshot of this idea is that having processed a payment from the agency, Proz would then have a record of that company's verifiable contact information which could be used in the event a translator is not paid. This in turn would (perhaps) bolster some confidence in accepting jobs from distant quarters.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
On another facet, I think that the option of submitting bids via Proz should be free for all concerned. However it is my opinion that the job poster should PAY (perhaps the same $1 free users pay to bid) for the option of getting bids via e-mail only.
On the U.S. based website, Craigs List, you have to pay $25.00 to find employees / workers.
[Edited at 2015-04-27 17:15 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:18
Member (2008)
Italian to English
I have decided not to take part in this. It isn't going anywhere.
| | | | Tim Drayton
Cyprus
Local time: 13:18
Turkish to English
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| You are right | Apr 27, 2015 |
Jacques DP wrote:
I personally like the fact that you wanted to defend the German government against the apparently ridiculous claims. Often the anti-moderation attitudes are of the anarchist type, so this is refreshingly different.
For a reason that I don't understand, you find it very difficult to accept that this particular place has particular rules. Maybe if you create or manage something like this yourself you will understand the challenge better.
By the way I don't think you should assume that all participants here have the same "values". We're just cooperating on business-related matters. It's not a community in the strong sense of the word.
Is one such value: "attacks [...] on [...] groups [...] will not be tolerated."
If so, why is a clearly unfounded attack on the German tax authorities (a group) to be tolerated, but a post laying bare the fallaciousness of that attack not to be tolerated?
You are right; I find it difficult to accept the way the rules are applied here. Looks like I always will.
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Lisa Simpson, MCIL MITI wrote: Tim Drayton wrote:
...absolutely nobody is supporting me here shows that this is the wrong community for me to get involved in. I just can't make sense of your values. Tim, I don't know you and I haven't seen the thread in question. (...). Fact is, the site does not tolerate questioning stupidity. Someone can post 6000+ questions in Kudoz, many answers for which are already in the glossary or could be found in two ticks by googling the term, but you're not allowed to point this out. Just because people don't come out in open support doesn't mean they don't agree with you. We've just given up trying to change the site. Site staff have never shown any willingness to revisit rules.
I tried (briefly) to find the thread and failed. I therefore neither agree nor disagree with the specifics; I've already said what I think the general principles are. Hence I would support being allowed to point out that any particular kudoz question can be found easily, for instance. While I also agree with refraining from pointing out perceived character deficiencies, I imagine that if a thousand questions had comments such as "this is easy to find" (and there is one asker at least where this figure is probably accurate), the message might get out. Lisa's final two sentences are the nub and crux, and ultimately partly the reason behind the events behind the first post.
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Tom in London wrote:
I have decided not to take part in this. It isn't going anywhere.
As a matter of fact it went somewhere, and stayed there for the past umpteen+ posts. Not moving any more.
A discussion on Proz-bashing on FB and LikedIn has turned into a flaming discussion on ONE specific incident (I have no idea on how long ago it took place) when messages presumed as insulting a) the German tax administration and/or b) a translator in Germany who was apparently oblivious to their regulations, were deleted by moderators.
My mother-in-law left Germany, her birthplace, about 82 years ago. This is as close as I ever got to German taxes. So I'm out of it until the discussion gets back on track.
| | | | Jacques DP
Switzerland
Local time: 12:18
English to French
If so, why is a clearly unfounded attack on the German tax authorities (a group) to be tolerated, but a post laying bare the fallaciousness of that attack not to be tolerated?
Maybe the talk about the VAT info being deliberately hidden was seen as ignorant talk or wild speculation that didn't really matter. No-one in the forum nor elsewhere was really seen as being attacked.
And perhaps, just perhaps, you are slightly stretching things by being so indignant about the violated honor of the German tax authority? Admit it, you just couldn't resist the call of the battle!
I find it difficult to accept the way the rules are applied here.
It's difficult to resist the temptation. But I think Proz staff and mods are doing their best managing the forums. It's not so easy. If they need to talk forever every time, ProZ will have to close down. Even bad decisions should be accepted and you should move on. Don't take it too seriously.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:18
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
If ProZ made the arbitrary decision to ban all jobs under .08 a word (like another portal), remove all agency profiles that reportedly pay under that amount, remove all translators that charge less than x.xx, etc., etc. wouldn't that just result in someone else opening another website to fill that void?
Yes it would.
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
One issue that I do consider weird is that fact that unregistered (and non-paying) users can access the KudoZ database like a free professional dictionary.
I also think this is odd and it's one of the reasons that my participation on KudoZ is very carefully targeted. I think it should be for paying members only.
Dan
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| back to the original question | Apr 27, 2015 |
"Is anyone else irritated by the amount of proz bashing that goes on on other sites like the FB translators' groups?"
I, for one, am not. I probably would be if I thought the site lived up to its name, but in my opinion, it doesn't.
I find it much more annoying that Proz ignores repeated requests for changing rigid and/or ridiculous and/or outdated rules; allows Kudoz practices such as the ones so aptly pointed out by Lisa Simpson; allows clearly non-native speak... See more "Is anyone else irritated by the amount of proz bashing that goes on on other sites like the FB translators' groups?"
I, for one, am not. I probably would be if I thought the site lived up to its name, but in my opinion, it doesn't.
I find it much more annoying that Proz ignores repeated requests for changing rigid and/or ridiculous and/or outdated rules; allows Kudoz practices such as the ones so aptly pointed out by Lisa Simpson; allows clearly non-native speakers to profile themselves as native speakers; allows members to profile themselves as specialists in fields that - judging from questions, answers and comments on Kudoz - clearly are not their field of expertise at all; allows agencies to dictate maximum rates; allows dubious BB practices; allows machine translations in its translation contests; allows its glossary to become a minefield of wrong translations.
Etc. etc.
No, I'm not irritated by the amount of Proz bashing that's going on.
But it doesn't surprise me either.
edited for a typo
[Edited at 2015-04-27 18:37 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Again, ad-hominem derogatory comments are not OK | Apr 27, 2015 |
Tim Drayton wrote: Jacques DP wrote:
I personally like the fact that you wanted to defend the German government against the apparently ridiculous claims. Often the anti-moderation attitudes are of the anarchist type, so this is refreshingly different.
For a reason that I don't understand, you find it very difficult to accept that this particular place has particular rules. Maybe if you create or manage something like this yourself you will understand the challenge better.
By the way I don't think you should assume that all participants here have the same "values". We're just cooperating on business-related matters. It's not a community in the strong sense of the word.
Is one such value: "attacks ... on ... groups ... will not be tolerated." If so, why is a clearly unfounded attack on the German tax authorities (a group) to be tolerated, but a post laying bare the fallaciousness of that attack not to be tolerated? You are right; I find it difficult to accept the way the rules are applied here. Looks like I always will.
A thread where a member questions the procedures of the German tax authority was allowed, and so were several posts that stated that this first post was wrong. What was not tolerated was an ad-hominem derogatory comment on the thread starter. I hope the difference is clear between discussing an issue or discussing the person who posted the issue.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | | Could you please address this question? | Apr 27, 2015 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
Years ago I submitted a post discussing whether we should revisit the site rule "Speculating on others' opinions is not allowed. Commenting on others' opinions without authorization ('Jenny seems to think...'), is not allowed."
My concern was that this rule can be interpreted by members of staff in many different ways and I wondered whether it can be enforced consistently as written.
This post was rejected, and I was advised to submit a support ticket.
So my question is: can we now discuss this rule in the forums and suggest improvements?
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Anna Sarah Krämer Fazendeiro wrote: Very useful for those "professionals", whose research abilities seem to be reduced to asking questions in this forum. For professionals who are not as skilled in English as their chosen profession would require, there is a German version. I never found it easy to diplomatically insult people when I really need to let off steam, but I first noticed what a useful relief it can be when watching a very old aunt starting to affront my unbearable-as-usual mother-in-law - without her ever feeling affronted at all, as she simply couldn't grasp that all those sweet words directed at her could be anything but polite compliments. Of course, everyone else had a wonderful time, secretly sniggering. For us younger generations who had ample opportunities to throw around f-words and other fould language, there is much to learn from the elderly!
Many years ago I had two elderly neighbours who were normally the best of friends, but did not see eye to eye on absolutely everything. They had developed ways of arguing as a fine art - so that they could agree to differ and be friends again afterwards...
I don't remember the subject of the discussion, but one day at a coffee party they went on for several minutes, averring and refuting and denying the possibility of each other's beliefs... in the politest possible terms. I was still learning Danish, and picked up several useful new expressions!
Ideally, that is how Kudoz and other discussions ought to be carried on.
| | | | Jacques DP
Switzerland
Local time: 12:18
English to French
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It does indeed raise a smile. Do you not think, though, that if it were permitted, it would appear on the pages of, oh, about half the kudoz questions that are posted? (It would in Fr-Eng anyway.) Thing is, it's been tried (IIRC - I have a feeling this very website was where I first saw it) and it's not subtle enough to get around the old "Thou Shalt Not Criticise The Asker's Decision-making Processes Or Lack Thereof" rule. Or whatever it says. I'm way past caring.
More to the point... See more It does indeed raise a smile. Do you not think, though, that if it were permitted, it would appear on the pages of, oh, about half the kudoz questions that are posted? (It would in Fr-Eng anyway.) Thing is, it's been tried (IIRC - I have a feeling this very website was where I first saw it) and it's not subtle enough to get around the old "Thou Shalt Not Criticise The Asker's Decision-making Processes Or Lack Thereof" rule. Or whatever it says. I'm way past caring.
More to the point, where's Neil gone? ▲ Collapse
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