| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Abusing the "homework/test question" option Initiator des Themas: Catherine Bolton
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Dinny 
Griechenland
Local time: 04:29
Italienisch > Dänisch
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| It's also a question of time! | Jun 3, 2004 |
Further than agreeing with Catherine, Monika, Henk and whomever thinks it's an abuse pretending the we all should do the test/homework for somebody who is not yet at the appropriate level to do so by her/himself, I also would like to include the waste of time! Most of us are presumably up to our necks in work most of the time, and when taking the time to visit KudoZ during a break to see if somebody needs a hand it's frustrating and time-consuming to have to "just skip" loads of questions that -... See more Further than agreeing with Catherine, Monika, Henk and whomever thinks it's an abuse pretending the we all should do the test/homework for somebody who is not yet at the appropriate level to do so by her/himself, I also would like to include the waste of time! Most of us are presumably up to our necks in work most of the time, and when taking the time to visit KudoZ during a break to see if somebody needs a hand it's frustrating and time-consuming to have to "just skip" loads of questions that - my humble opinion - should never have been there in the first place.
After having skipped some twenty questions the bell rings.... back to work ... sorry, I actually never got down to the "real" questions.
Ciao
Dinny ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sarah Ponting
Italien
Local time: 03:29
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Did you go to see the questions concerned? | Jun 3, 2004 |
Marijke Singer wrote:
Some degree of control is, of course, necessary in this day and age of child pornography and such but trying to railroad your fellow members into screaming blue murder just because another member SEEMS to be behaving in a way we do not like is just too much for me.
I don't think you could have bothered to look up the questions concerned, else I'm sure you wouldnn't have said that they were asked by someone who "SEEMS to be behaving in a way we do not like". It's nothing to do with what we like and dislike - it's straightforward respect for the other members of the site who make reasonable requests and whose questions get ignored because they're either pushed right down to the bottom of the list or off the screen or potential answerers have abandoned the site after having tried to wade through the endless questions of the unreasonable few. I hasten to add that I'm not saying this for my own benefit - I've practically given up asking questions on this site because of the abundance of ridiculous answers proferred and now directly contact colleagues whom I have met through Proz and know to be proficient in their specialist areas, for which I am glad to continue to pay my Platinum membership (thanks, Proz) - but for the sake of those who are genuinely stuck on a few terms or sentences and have tried seeking the answer to their problem themselves before posting.
Personally I feel far more offended by the behaviour of people who post whole translations, a line at a time, than I am by Ian's post.
Sarah
| | | | Catherine Bolton
Local time: 03:29
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken | Well said, Sarah | Jun 3, 2004 |
Unfortunately, some of the people who have posted "shocked" responses here have NOT looked at the questions we mentioned. Given that English is our lingua franca anyway, you don't even need to know Italian. The hapless translators who tried to help this person posted in English, of course, and from their answers it is abundantly clear that someone had taken on a test that was far beyond his/her capabilities, possibly not even in his/her native tongue.
Next time, we can suggest that these p... See more Unfortunately, some of the people who have posted "shocked" responses here have NOT looked at the questions we mentioned. Given that English is our lingua franca anyway, you don't even need to know Italian. The hapless translators who tried to help this person posted in English, of course, and from their answers it is abundantly clear that someone had taken on a test that was far beyond his/her capabilities, possibly not even in his/her native tongue.
Next time, we can suggest that these people plug their translation tests into Babel Fish or the equivalent.
Otherwise, we can always ask Henry to change the name to notproz.com
Catherine ▲ Collapse
| | | | | the smell of fresh cut grass... ahhhhh! But wait! What's that? | Jun 3, 2004 |
Sarah Ponting wrote:
I've practically given up asking questions on this site because of the abundance of ridiculous answers proferred...
Sarah
yes, Sarah... I posted a thread some months ago about the evident declining of some SCs. Unfortunately, the present level of professionality - both of askers' and respondents' - is terribly low and has put me off the KudoZ game forever. But when a site is structured the way ProZ is, you cannot expect otherwise. This is where Henry wants to take the site and I can only respect his decisions, but the smell of dog poo is getting stronger and stronger, day by day...
Giovanni
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Andy Watkinson
Spanien
Local time: 03:29
Mitglied
Katalanisch > Englisch
+ ...
Marijke,
"I hope the next time you go to your GP with a possible ailment that turns out not to be anything important, your GP does not take the same attitude. Really, this is too much."
Were I to return to my doctor's surgery twenty times in half an hour, I should imagine the language used to describe my behaviour would be a lot more colourful than "dog crap".
While, surprisingly, I occasionally "get the urge" to do a "Mats", beam back to the late sixties a... See more Marijke,
"I hope the next time you go to your GP with a possible ailment that turns out not to be anything important, your GP does not take the same attitude. Really, this is too much."
Were I to return to my doctor's surgery twenty times in half an hour, I should imagine the language used to describe my behaviour would be a lot more colourful than "dog crap".
While, surprisingly, I occasionally "get the urge" to do a "Mats", beam back to the late sixties and think "Well, in one way, everyone should be able to do their thang provided it doesn't hurt anyone", the inevitable realisation is that it does represent a major waste of space and time.
As others have pointed out, the name of the site is ProZ.......
Not "FreeForAllTranslations.com"
or "WasteMyTimeI'veGotNothingBetterToDo.com"
or "ElloElloSunshineIsThatYOURSubjunctive?ComeAlongQuietly.com"
Saludos,
Andy ▲ Collapse
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 03:29
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
| Not letting sleeping dogs lie | Jun 3, 2004 |
Marijke Singer wrote:
But equating asking for help with dog crap really takes the biscuit.
No, no, no, no, no! I am not equating asking for help with "dog crap", I am complaining about the systematic abuse of the site by people trying to get translations done for free. If that doesn't bother you, Marijke, that's fine, but I'm sure you can still imagine that it does bother others.
Or, as well as letting sleeping dogs lie, should we hold our noses and hope for the best?
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andycw wrote:
Were I to return to my doctor's surgery twenty times in half an hour, I should imagine the language used to describe my behaviour would be a lot more colourful than "dog crap".
Andy
Every system is open to abuse, if not managed efficiently. We are not talking about limiting freedom, but to monitor the system in a way that everybody can use it. The case we are referring to is a clear instance of abuse. To have the whole test translated for free is not only an abuse, it's cheating.
That's why I changed my mind regarding the number of questions an asker should be able to post per day: five. If you have more than 5 queries, you shouldn't be translating that particular text. Remember: unprofessional attitude and shoddy work give our profession a bad name.
Giovanni
[Edited at 2004-06-03 14:31]
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 04:29
Mitglied (2004)
Englisch > Russisch
+ ...
| Just some more thoughts | Jun 3, 2004 |
Sometimes it seems to me that kudoZ answerers are the most oppressed people at proZ. Whenever an active answerer cries out of his/her frustration because of askers' abuses of proZ, he/she is told: nothing or nobody enforces you to asnwer or react, just take it easy and pass by it. My dear colleagues, by why have I or any other active member of proZ community just take it easy? Why some outsiders who do not even care to say so simple and so human "thank you" for our help, have more rights than pe... See more Sometimes it seems to me that kudoZ answerers are the most oppressed people at proZ. Whenever an active answerer cries out of his/her frustration because of askers' abuses of proZ, he/she is told: nothing or nobody enforces you to asnwer or react, just take it easy and pass by it. My dear colleagues, by why have I or any other active member of proZ community just take it easy? Why some outsiders who do not even care to say so simple and so human "thank you" for our help, have more rights than people who `live' here and who, by the way, _are_ proZ community?
I suggested it before and I suggest it once more now:
1) please make "Easy" (non-professional) area of proZ a non-points zone. ProZ members who do want to help students and other outsiders (everyone who isn't a professional translator) will help them "for free" -- and no more desperate kudoZ hunting for all these "I-love-yous".
2) connect kudoZ points with the limit of questions the person is allowed to ask. This is so simple and natural, this is just the `give-and-take' idea. First help your fellow translator -- and then you has your right to ask two, three or four questions in "Pro" zone. Otherwise you are free to ask your questions in "non-points", "Non-Pro" area where there would be less chances to get help (because there would be no kudoZ points).
In this way we can make "Pro" area really professional and cooperative, and at the same time to create a special "Non-Pro" area for really sincere and free (no awards) help.
[Edited at 2004-06-03 16:08] ▲ Collapse
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Todd Field
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 19:29
Mitglied
Portugiesisch > Englisch
| Too much tolerance in KudoZ = destructive to the ProZ community | Jun 3, 2004 |
You've spent a couple weeks perfecting your 20,000-word translation for your best customer. A couple of tricky terms have eluded your best research efforts and you post them as KudoZ questions. Within hours, thoughtful colleagues from around the globe help you pinpoint a new marketing buzzword, the latest insider jargon, a newly-created technical term, and so on. Now THAT is KudoZ in action.
Then, your carefully-composed questions get shoved aside by a string of 15 sentences in your... See more You've spent a couple weeks perfecting your 20,000-word translation for your best customer. A couple of tricky terms have eluded your best research efforts and you post them as KudoZ questions. Within hours, thoughtful colleagues from around the globe help you pinpoint a new marketing buzzword, the latest insider jargon, a newly-created technical term, and so on. Now THAT is KudoZ in action.
Then, your carefully-composed questions get shoved aside by a string of 15 sentences in your language pair... an anonymous person wanting a free translation of his or her latest love letter. The utility of the great KudoZ tool is instantly squashed.
In my personal opinion, the overly permissive nature of KudoZ, while welcoming, represents the same mentality as that which made the U.S.A. a playground for frivolous litigation. If the intention of ProZ is to be a professional community, then we need some basic rules to discourage casual participation. The Internet is too big and too powerful to simply say "if you don’t like what you see, don't answer the Kudoz question." Despite the best intentions, too much tolerance can be destructive. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Julia Gal
Local time: 03:29
Französisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Let's not mix apples and pears... | Jun 3, 2004 |
Whilst I agree entirely that plugging an entire text in line-by-line constitutes an abuse of the site and should be clamped down on, I don't think the same can be said of asking over-simple questions.
There are many boxes linking to the site on other language-related sites around the web and the visitors to those sites generally have no idea of what Proz is and does.
Someone looking up "happy birthday" or "tomato" in another language at "yourdictionary.com" will probabl... See more Whilst I agree entirely that plugging an entire text in line-by-line constitutes an abuse of the site and should be clamped down on, I don't think the same can be said of asking over-simple questions.
There are many boxes linking to the site on other language-related sites around the web and the visitors to those sites generally have no idea of what Proz is and does.
Someone looking up "happy birthday" or "tomato" in another language at "yourdictionary.com" will probably find the easy option of typing the word into the nice little Proz window and getting a reply by e-mail much less hassle than clicking around looking for the right dictionary, then looking up the terms needed.
This is why questions coming through those sites appear as "easy". You can easily set your preferences to only show "pro" questions and leave the easy ones for people with more time on their hands.
This feature is important in that helps to promote the site and someone with too many terms to look up or a difficult text to translate might actually end up posting a job here as a result. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Catherine Bolton
Local time: 03:29
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken | Apples, pears, parks and dogs | Jun 3, 2004 |
Julia,
I can appreciate your comments but, again, have you looked at the questions at issue?
At the end of the day, why should that person bother to post a job on Proz when s/he can get it done for free by posting questions?
Worse yet, a fellow translator - and I use the term loosely - undertakes a test for what may end up being a long-term customer and has nothing to lose because, hey, s/he's not really doing the test anyway.
BTW, I like Kirill's proposal on the "no-poin... See more Julia,
I can appreciate your comments but, again, have you looked at the questions at issue?
At the end of the day, why should that person bother to post a job on Proz when s/he can get it done for free by posting questions?
Worse yet, a fellow translator - and I use the term loosely - undertakes a test for what may end up being a long-term customer and has nothing to lose because, hey, s/he's not really doing the test anyway.
BTW, I like Kirill's proposal on the "no-points" area for easy question. We'd avoid things like this.
Catherine
[Edited at 2004-06-03 17:19] ▲ Collapse
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cbolton wrote:
BTW, I like Kirill's proposal on the "no-points" area for easy question. We'd avoid things like this.
Catherine
[Edited at 2004-06-03 17:19]
I proposed a no-point system a long time ago... even clear cases of abuse get away with answers because of this distorted point mechanism... bah!
Giovanni
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Catherine Bolton
Local time: 03:29
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken
Maybe Kirill's idea will be heard.
But seriously, folks, this really needs to be addressed.
| | | | Henk Peelen
Niederlande
Local time: 03:29
Mitglied (2003)
Deutsch > Niederländisch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Don't worry, be happy | Jun 3, 2004 |
Maybe I'm too simple (blessed are the poor in spirit) to get an ulcer from the behaviour fellow pros or askers display and / or I'm too much interested in the reasons of their conduct and the pattern their hidden search for a free translation displays, but most of time I find it hard to really get angry.
Look at this example and discover how someone was trying not to ask too much questions in a row.
Three people use two days and four questions to ask the four sentences of a po... See more Maybe I'm too simple (blessed are the poor in spirit) to get an ulcer from the behaviour fellow pros or askers display and / or I'm too much interested in the reasons of their conduct and the pattern their hidden search for a free translation displays, but most of time I find it hard to really get angry.
Look at this example and discover how someone was trying not to ask too much questions in a row.
Three people use two days and four questions to ask the four sentences of a poem.
June 2:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/728637 (fourth and last sentence of the poem)
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/728643 (third sentence of the poem)
June 3:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/729405 (first sentence of the poem)
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/729418 (second sentence of the poem)
The poem clearly is a birth poem, here's the literally (so useless to submit) translation for those who want to make and submit a prodigy, er a poem:
whoever sees this little girl
can't trust his own eyes
and has to agree / support / be in agreement / endorse
it still takes two to make a miracle
Well, whether the reason is that I don't master the target language enough or that I don't like to worry about the rightness of this questions (I think it's not really bad, but perhaps a little sneaky and surely clumsy, because you can't translate the free sentences of a poem), I alway find a good reason to stay away:
I'm translator, so I have a lot of work to do!
Change to win 16 KudoZ
Good luck! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Terry Gilman
Deutschland
Local time: 03:29
Mitglied (2003)
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
| Voting on some community standards? | Jun 3, 2004 |
Besides the opportunity the forums provide for establishing community standards, could we agree on a way for members of the language pairs to vote on such questions? My impression is that the English-to-Spanish group achieved consensus on "10-a-day" with a vote. I'd be in favor of a time limit on any standard (e.g., a year or two) to accommodate new members' potentially differing views.
Fundamentally I dislike advocating added rules, but having seen another forum (German, about a va... See more Besides the opportunity the forums provide for establishing community standards, could we agree on a way for members of the language pairs to vote on such questions? My impression is that the English-to-Spanish group achieved consensus on "10-a-day" with a vote. I'd be in favor of a time limit on any standard (e.g., a year or two) to accommodate new members' potentially differing views.
Fundamentally I dislike advocating added rules, but having seen another forum (German, about a vacation destination) made uninhabitable this spring by just two rude posters, I think there is a lot of merit in protecting KudoZ by making easy questions...er... pointless, limiting questions to 5 or 10 in 24 hours, and possibly allowing members to use accumulated points to buy "more than 10 questions a day" (hard to imagine, but there might be an emergency). This would also limit the moderators' "policing" duties. ▲ Collapse
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