| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4 5] | Abusing the "homework/test question" option Initiator des Themas: Catherine Bolton
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Julia Gal 
Local time: 17:05
Französisch > Englisch
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| cbolton, I'm not sure you understood my point... | Jun 3, 2004 |
What I started off by saying was this
[quote]Whilst I agree entirely that plugging an entire text in line-by-line constitutes an abuse of the site and should be clamped down on, I don't think the same can be said of asking over-simple questions.{quote]
I actually said I agreed with what others were saying about the abusive questions. What I was disagreeing with was the complaints being made about people (non-members) asking obvious words such as "happy birthday" or "pomodoro".
[quote]cbolton wrote:
Julia,
I can appreciate your comments but, again, have you looked at the questions at issue?
At the end of the day, why should that person bother to post a job on Proz when s/he can get it done for free by posting questions?
quote]
I quite agree with the statement you made, but like I said, that was not the point of my post.
| | | | Claudia Iglesias
Chile
Local time: 11:05
Mitglied (2002)
Spanisch > Französisch
+ ...
| I wouldn't talk of abuse here | Jun 3, 2004 |
In the first question you can see on the top "KudoZ affiliate: yourDictionary.com". It shows that this person discovered ProZ via that site.
In the second and the third questions (asked directly in ProZ), the name of the asker appears.
And for the fourth question the asker decided to create a profile! We should be glad of that, I prefer people with profiles (the more fulfilled the better) than anonymous askers.
Now, we could invite this monolingual member to present himself in his profile. Let him the time to discover the forums of ProZ.
Anyway, for anyone, in case of abuse, moderators have the tools to warn or block.
| | | | RHELLER
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 09:05
Französisch > Englisch
+ ...
| easy zone = "no points" zone | Jun 3, 2004 |
Great idea Kirill!
Now we just have to figure out how to define "easy" )))
Seriously, it can only help.
I also agree with Todd and Monica's scenario. That is how it works for me. First, I try my own resources: specialists, dictionaries, internet, etc. If I still have doubts I come to the professionals. I think I have only asked a handful of questions, but they were extremely important to m... See more Great idea Kirill!
Now we just have to figure out how to define "easy")))
Seriously, it can only help.
I also agree with Todd and Monica's scenario. That is how it works for me. First, I try my own resources: specialists, dictionaries, internet, etc. If I still have doubts I come to the professionals. I think I have only asked a handful of questions, but they were extremely important to me at that moment.
To Ian: yes! most of us understood the poop analogy ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 18:05
Mitglied (2004)
Englisch > Russisch
+ ...
| It's easy to define easy | Jun 3, 2004 |
Rita Heller wrote:
Now we just have to figure out how to define "easy" )))
It's simple. No "Easy" word at all, there are just "Pro" and "non-Pro" questions. "Pro" are related to translation jobs and work, "non-pro" are for outsiders and for our colleagues who are curious on this or that translation question sometimes.
What is the difference? Those who ask "Pro" question has to pay with some points (not brownies; brownies are too easy to get) to ask a question. These questions are graded with kudoZ points as usual. Everyone is happy.
Those who has nothing to pay with or are not registered members ask their questions in "Non-Pro" zone which does not bring points to answerers (pure charity or whatever you name it).
That simple.
[Edited at 2004-06-03 20:18]
[Edited at 2004-06-03 20:18]
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Henk Peelen
Niederlande
Local time: 17:05
Mitglied (2003)
Deutsch > Niederländisch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Claudia Iglesias wrote:
In the first question you can see on the top "KudoZ affiliate: yourDictionary.com". It shows that this person discovered ProZ via that site.
In the second and the third questions (asked directly in ProZ), the name of the asker appears.
And for the fourth question the asker decided to create a profile! We should be glad of that, I prefer people with profiles (the more fulfilled the better) than anonymous askers.
Now, we could invite this monolingual member to present himself in his profile. Let him the time to discover the forums of ProZ.
Anyway, for anyone, in case of abuse, moderators have the tools to warn or block.
I already presumed the first two persons were the same, but thought that becoming a member would 'overrule' the non-member state.
No, I thought already it was a searcher / sseker, and wasn't lookint to insinuate abuse too quickly.
*********
I think the shit analogy wasn't right, but tactless instead. To use the park as a dog toilet is a real abuse, the result of which can't be avoided by the 'guiltless victims' (actually everybody) of this wrongdoing while the 'wrongdoer' (dog owner) is fully out of sight, whereas asking too much (and / or too simple) questions is too much of the same, which can be avoided of those who don't want to take part in it (not everybody).
| | | | Henk Peelen
Niederlande
Local time: 17:05
Mitglied (2003)
Deutsch > Niederländisch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Forgive me my pride (in case it would be pride , but... | Jun 3, 2004 |
Rita Heller wrote:
Great idea Kirill!
Now we just have to figure out how to define "easy" )))
I think the problem is a lot of askers don't really know whether their question is easy or pro.
And some other askers who should have to know, probably don't take enough time to decite about the easy / pro option.
A lot of 'easy' questions are anything but easy, making this criterium just a vague indicator, instead of a tool for distinguish about KudoZ. I thought this was said very often.
I don't want to step on peoples toes, but I think some people don't realize that
'stay away if you don't like it'
is a golden rule, which should be supplemented with
'comment effective but friendly'
'squash if nothing helps (but not when answerers have already done a lot to help the asker'
and perhaps more
I think it's better to agree on a quantifiable criterion:
no more than 10 (perhaps 15) questions per asker per day.
And Proz should make the homework / test criterion maximal visible before the answerer opens a question.
[Edited at 2004-06-03 20:52]
| | | | tazdog (X)
Spanien
Local time: 17:05
Spanisch > Englisch
+ ...
| criteria for easy questions | Jun 3, 2004 |
I, too, think that no points should be awarded for "easy" questions (I also like the idea of calling them non-pro rather than easy). With regard to the criteria used to decide whether a question is easy or pro, here's what the Kudoz FAQ's say:
"I am not sure whether a question should be classified as easy or pro. What is the difference?
An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an eas... See more I, too, think that no points should be awarded for "easy" questions (I also like the idea of calling them non-pro rather than easy). With regard to the criteria used to decide whether a question is easy or pro, here's what the Kudoz FAQ's say:
"I am not sure whether a question should be classified as easy or pro. What is the difference?
An easy question is one that any bilingual person would be able to answer correctly. (Or in the case of monolingual questions, an easy question is one that any native speaker of the language would be able to answer correctly.) A pro question is anything else... in other words, any question that requires knowledge or skills that are specialized (even slightly).
Another way to think of the difficulty levels is this: an easy question is one that deals with everyday conversation. A pro question is anything else. When deciding between easy and pro, err on the side of pro. Most questions will be pro."
http://www.proz.com/?sp=faq#kudoz
Therefore, by definition, ANY question that is posted by a so-called PROFESSIONAL translator should be a pro-level question. The fact that quite a few of these professional translators seem to think their questions are "easy" always makes me wonder how professional they really are. (And if it's just carelessness, well, that says something, too.) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 18:05
Mitglied (2004)
Englisch > Russisch
+ ...
| A bit more on the system I propose | Jun 3, 2004 |
1) there are two question zones, "Pro" and "Non-Pro"
2) the former gives kudoZ points to an answerer, the latter does not.
3) anyone can ask freely in "non-pro" zone, be s/he a registered proZ-member or not;
4) any new registered proZ member gets her/his 5, 10, or 20, or else number or starting Q(question) points which allow to ask questions in "Pro" zone;
5) to ask a question in the "Pro" zone everyone has to pay 2 Q-points;
6) when grading his or her question in t... See more 1) there are two question zones, "Pro" and "Non-Pro"
2) the former gives kudoZ points to an answerer, the latter does not.
3) anyone can ask freely in "non-pro" zone, be s/he a registered proZ-member or not;
4) any new registered proZ member gets her/his 5, 10, or 20, or else number or starting Q(question) points which allow to ask questions in "Pro" zone;
5) to ask a question in the "Pro" zone everyone has to pay 2 Q-points;
6) when grading his or her question in the "Pro" zone the asker gets 1 Q-point back (to promote grading questions);
7) those who are out of their Q-pts stil can ask questions in "non-Pro" zone which does not give any kudoZ points to answerers;
8th) winning a question in the "Pro" zone means adding not only kudoZ points but also the same amount of Q-points which allow to ask more questions in "Pro" zone in the future.
For me personally, it's a system based on `give-and-take' basis including the free opportunity to ask questions in "non-Pro" zone in hope that there are people who answer without the urge to get more points.
Simple.
[Edited at 2004-06-03 20:59] ▲ Collapse
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Dinny
Griechenland
Local time: 18:05
Italienisch > Dänisch
+ ...
| Kirill, you've got it right! | Jun 3, 2004 |
I think it would be great if Kudoz questions were lined up like that.... pros' questions (like Todd & Monika said... when you just need confirmation or help with the few terms you simply can't work out yourself) and a "play-ground area" where you can ask how to say Merry Christmas, translate "pomodoro", etc. - where no point are awarded.
Kirill, your suggestion is great, this is the way to do it!
I would certain... See more I think it would be great if Kudoz questions were lined up like that.... pros' questions (like Todd & Monika said... when you just need confirmation or help with the few terms you simply can't work out yourself) and a "play-ground area" where you can ask how to say Merry Christmas, translate "pomodoro", etc. - where no point are awarded.
Kirill, your suggestion is great, this is the way to do it!
I would certainly go into the area of non-proz whenever I have time, it's funny and it's nice to help somebody with these questions of no vital importance.... but I would spend most of my time in KudoZ trying to lend a hand to those trying to finish a translation being stuck with a few terms.
I experienced it myself a few days ago... I got stuck with a couple of terms in a translation, nothing whatsoever to find on the internet, and finally I ended up asking KudoZ. I think this is actually the way to do it: Try everything... and THEN ask KudoZ! (unfortunately IT-DA did not answer, but IT-EN helped me getting my way around it).
Actually, I think the idea of having to earn KudoZ points to be able to ask KudoZ questions is the solution!
Henry, where are you? Are you listening? ▲ Collapse
| | | | nothing
Local time: 16:05
Englisch > Spanisch
+ ...
| I agree with Kirill, but | Jun 4, 2004 |
[quote]Kirill Semenov wrote:
7) those who are out of their Q-pts stil can ask questions in "non-Pro" zone which does not give any kudoZ points to answerers;
There was a recent case where a proz.com member posted a whole document over a few days (both as Easy and as Pro questions)and just kept changing the field so that it would be more difficult to detect. The language pair of the questions was not even one of his/her working pairs. I don't know if it was a test or a job, but it was a clear abuse in any case.
I agree with Kirill's proposals, but I would change number seven to cover this type of abuse.
| | | | | it was not really homework | Jun 4, 2004 |
Marijke Singer wrote:
It seems to be pretty pointless to give a different perspective on certain issues on ProZ and I had more or less decided to refrain from contributing anymore. But equating asking for help with dog crap really takes the biscuit. I hope the next time you go to your GP with a possible ailment that turns out not to be anything important, your GP does not take the same attitude. Really, this is too much.
What are we supposed to be? The keepers of the great secret? Is ProZ supposed to be the great secret society that is only open to certain persons who will toe the line? Get real. The Internet is an open place, to which everybody has and should have access regardless of their background. ProZ operates in this environment and should, in my very humble opinion, also apply openness to its dealings. Some degree of control is, of course, necessary in this day and age of child pornography and such but trying to railroad your fellow members into screaming blue murder just because another member SEEMS to be behaving in a way we do not like is just too much for me.
A very disappointed translator with more than 20 years experience who is seriously considering not renewing her Platinum membership next time round!
Don't resign for this Marijke! The incident on the Italian site was truly abuse. The person "listed" it as homework, but it was actually a beautifully written, intricate tourism text that the person simply couldn't handle. So it was posted, long phrase after long phrase. There's been the same recently on other sites too. People try to hide behind the 'homework'label to get jobs done.
[Edited at 2004-06-05 19:22]
| | | | Rosa Maria Duenas Rios (X)
Local time: 11:05
| Four concrete suggestions... | Jun 4, 2004 |
...that I believe would make the Kudoz section a better place:
1. Instead of classifying the questions as easy and pro (which is quite arbitrary), why not request the asker to classify himself/herself as professional or amateur. This would allow other translators to better determine if they want to help a kid with homework/a teenager with a love letter, or a fellow translator, or both.
2. Limit the number of questions automatically. I believe this would not hurt, since ... See more ...that I believe would make the Kudoz section a better place:
1. Instead of classifying the questions as easy and pro (which is quite arbitrary), why not request the asker to classify himself/herself as professional or amateur. This would allow other translators to better determine if they want to help a kid with homework/a teenager with a love letter, or a fellow translator, or both.
2. Limit the number of questions automatically. I believe this would not hurt, since almost everyone in the site coincides that asking more than 10 questions in a row is both non professional, and trying to abuse the system. And it would help a lot to ease the minds of many of us knowing that anyone's attempt to take advantage of Kudoz will be short cut. If this could be made automatically, our moderators -who already help a lot and are surely busy with their own jobs- would not be bothered as often with requests to contact a certain asker to explain Kudoz etiquette and what is considered abusive use. I really do not understand the reluctance of staff to make it a standard. Maybe they could explain further.
3. People wo are not logged in should not be allowed to ask questions. In the English-Spanish forum, I have seen that these people tend to try to take advantage of the site more frequently.
4. Similarly to previous suggestion, people who have not completed at least the basic information of their profile should not be allowed to post questions. Basic information could be mother tongue, language pairs, experience and education. It seems only natural to me that, if I want to become a member of any community (virtual or not), I should identify myself and provide at least some bits of basic information, otherwise we would all be dealing with anonimous Internet surfers. Just imagine what it would be like if people could log in to this Forum(s) without an identity and post their comments. No one would know who is talking and to whom they are talking! So why should Kudoz be different? Also, having to spend some time completing one's profile at Proz demonstrates interest in belonging to this community. If the people who log in are only interested in looking up the meaning of a word, there are thousands of other Internet sources they could use. And last but not least, I believe that a lot of us like to take a look at askers' profiles before answering their questions (and at those of people who answer questions too); finding them empty is not only disappointing, but also a confirmation that these people are intersted in something other than being members of this site.
Now I just hope I will not be jumped upon for daring to present these suggestions. I would like to read other members' comments, but also comments from staff concerning possible implementation of these measures.
One last thing. To moderators: Thank you for your voluntary work and for helping when we need you. And to professionals like Giovanni Guarnieri: I completely agree with you, and I believe that reading comments such as yours and Kim's makes being part of Proz worthwhile. So hang on, Giovanni. There are still quite a few "insiders" left, and I am sure Proz will only get better! ▲ Collapse
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Catherine Bolton
Local time: 17:05
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken
Rosa Maria,
Your suggestions are very good and should not be all that difficult to implement. Same goes for Kirill's thoughts
I'm still curious to hear what Henry thinks of these suggestions, as it indubitably improve the site.
Henry!! What do you think?
Catherine
| | | | | Sorry to be late to this thread... | Jun 4, 2004 |
Sorry I was not here sooner to say that among the moderators and staff, certain decisions have been made with regard to limiting askers and separating easy and pro questions. We simply have not implemented them yet--but we will soon. Please be patient in the meantime.
As for the homework/test "abuse", as long as we do not have limits, I think no one should condemn askers. Please just be patient; at the most, consider guiding them politely.
One more point: remember, mode... See more Sorry I was not here sooner to say that among the moderators and staff, certain decisions have been made with regard to limiting askers and separating easy and pro questions. We simply have not implemented them yet--but we will soon. Please be patient in the meantime.
As for the homework/test "abuse", as long as we do not have limits, I think no one should condemn askers. Please just be patient; at the most, consider guiding them politely.
One more point: remember, moderators are not paid, they are just regular (good) users who have been given additional "rights". We can't expect them to be at the controls 24x7. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Catherine Bolton
Local time: 17:05
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken
Henry,
Thanks for your comments. Looking forward to seeing these changes!
This whole forum actually came about BECAUSE when the problem arose I felt it important NOT to bother a moderator on a national holiday here it Italy.
I think (and hope!) we all realize that mods also have their own work and family lives. That's why we'd like to have a way to deal with certain things automatically, like the limits we mentioned.
Catherine
| | | | | Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4 5] | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Abusing the "homework/test question" option | Pastey |
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