| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Abusing the "homework/test question" option Initiator des Themas: Catherine Bolton
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Claudia Iglesias 
Chile
Local time: 01:28
Mitglied (2002)
Spanisch > Französisch
+ ...
| Did the moderator see it? | Jun 2, 2004 |
Hi
We (moderators) had discussions about setting a limit for questions asked depending on the status of the asker, but this was never implemented. I don't know whether it is abandonned or if it's going to be some day.
In each KudoZ there's a link to contact the moderator and automatically he/she'll have a link to that particular question. It's very useful (many people forget to give the links).
If you notice something that seems abuse to you, you can drop a... See more Hi
We (moderators) had discussions about setting a limit for questions asked depending on the status of the asker, but this was never implemented. I don't know whether it is abandonned or if it's going to be some day.
In each KudoZ there's a link to contact the moderator and automatically he/she'll have a link to that particular question. It's very useful (many people forget to give the links).
If you notice something that seems abuse to you, you can drop a line in order to see if the moderator believes it's abuse or not. If the moderator is not available you could contact another mod who knows one of the languages.
The "test or homework" option has been implemented in order to allow to skip those questions.
"Abuse" hasn't been defined and we might have different views.
But it's very important not to have regular users, who contribute, getting upset because of this kind of situation.
[Edited at 2004-06-02 19:44] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexiko
Local time: 23:28
Deutsch > Englisch
| Abusing the "homework/test question" option | Jun 2, 2004 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
It none of no one\'s business how or for what the asker uses the answers s/he gets.
No not assume anything about the asker (or the answerers). Focus only on the question!
The \'homework\' alert is meant to warn off those linguists who consider themselves too august to answer simple questions.
Mats, I\'d like to raise two points. First, why was the \'homework/translation test\' alert instituted in the first place? If you read the history of how this came about in the forums, you\'ll see that it was essentially because professional translators sign up to a code of ethics and seeing people asking a lot of questions that came from a translation test offended them. People who have been teachers/educators are naturally alarmed when they see students not doing their homework themselves but having others do it for them. ProZ staff responded to this concern by instituting the \"warning.\" You choose to call them names: \"too august.\" Others would call it professionalism.
My second point has to do with your knee-jerk responses to people who are clearly interested in making KudoZ an even better workplace for translators. I would ask you to listen more carefully to their concerns and not dismiss them so disdainfully.
Kim
| | | | Henk Peelen
Niederlande
Local time: 07:28
Mitglied (2003)
Deutsch > Niederländisch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | common sense / common consent | Jun 2, 2004 |
I thought most problems were solved by common sense / common consent / public opinion or whatever you'd like to call it.
Both askers and answerers are sometimes under the suspicion of 'abuse' of the system.
In my language pairs, a very sneaky yet gullible answerer (I know what I say, because I use to see him everyday in the mirror) today used to end his answers with something like 'hey fellows, please agree my answers, I want to pass some KudoZ mark this week'.
Yo... See more I thought most problems were solved by common sense / common consent / public opinion or whatever you'd like to call it.
Both askers and answerers are sometimes under the suspicion of 'abuse' of the system.
In my language pairs, a very sneaky yet gullible answerer (I know what I say, because I use to see him everyday in the mirror) today used to end his answers with something like 'hey fellows, please agree my answers, I want to pass some KudoZ mark this week'.
You know what?
Be sure he gets not one single agree or kudoz point this week.
 ))))
That's how it works in my language pairs.
You must educate them, that folks!
[Edited at 2004-06-02 19:59] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 08:28
Mitglied (2004)
Englisch > Russisch
+ ...
Henk Peelen wrote:
In my language pairs, a very sneaky yet gullible answerer (I know what I say, because I use to see him everyday in the mirror) today used to end his answerers with something like 'hey fellows, please agree my answers, I want to pass some kudoz mark this week'.
Oh my! I've thought I would have a heart attack when reading these. I've seen a lot of cunning in kudoZ, most of the tricks aimed onto askers, but I've never seen so explicit and graceless begging...
Be sure he gets not one single agree or kudoz point this week.
))))
Good news! Still, that's abhorrent...
[Edited at 2004-06-02 19:47]
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Catherine Bolton
Local time: 07:28
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken
First of all, I'm glad to read that I'm not the only one who's concerned over this issue.
To Claudia, as it happens, today is a national holiday in Italy and mods should rightly have a day off if they choose. I did not contact our moderator, nor did anyone else, probably because of this very reason.
The issue here is actually two-fold.
First of all, I should not HAVE to contact a moderator. As members of Proz, we agree (I hope) to a certain code of ethics when we join. The very... See more First of all, I'm glad to read that I'm not the only one who's concerned over this issue.
To Claudia, as it happens, today is a national holiday in Italy and mods should rightly have a day off if they choose. I did not contact our moderator, nor did anyone else, probably because of this very reason.
The issue here is actually two-fold.
First of all, I should not HAVE to contact a moderator. As members of Proz, we agree (I hope) to a certain code of ethics when we join. The very name PROZ means professional. BTW, I do not receive ANY kudoz questions because I got tired of rapid-fire postings, so I visit the site when I choose.
Furthermore, I've got no problem helping the hapless Italian student who's trying to finish his/her homework. After all, the Internet has become the modern version of Cliff Notes (you Americans know what I mean). My concern is that qualified neophytes who are trying their hardest to get into this business are unable to do so because UNqualified people are posting entire tests and, possibly, getting the job.
Hence, I am concerned not with use but ABuse.
The second issue, and to be honest, I find this even more alarming, is that the newbie who wrote to me privately -- simply because she found my name in the comments to the asker saying "whoa fella, wanna slow down" -- did NOT feel comfortable posting the forum herself, which is what I had originally suggested. She said she did not want to tread on any toes because she's new. Think about it, folks. Some of the reactions here have proven her point. I'm thicker skinned, evidently, but as one answerer here - Ian - has had the chance to note today with his own posting, the forum atmosphere is one of no holds barred.
It is unfortunate that a newbie should feel that way. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Henk Peelen
Niederlande
Local time: 07:28
Mitglied (2003)
Deutsch > Niederländisch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | You made my day by confirming my opinion | Jun 2, 2004 |
Kirill Semenov wrote:
Good news! Still, that's abhorrent...
It's terrible; be sure it kept me awake all day long.
| | | | Mats Wiman
Schweden
Local time: 07:28
Mitglied (2000)
Deutsch > Schwedisch
+ ...
In stillem Gedenken | If you don't want to: Don't do it! | Jun 2, 2004 |
Ian Winick wrote:
Mats Wiman wrote:
Also: Please remember the golden KudoZ rule:
It you do not like a question: Skip it!
This is not the \"golden KudoZ rule\", it is purely the \"Mats Wiman Golden Rule\", one which gets dusted off and paraded any time anyone complains about abuses of the system.
My golden rule is based on four years experience and of answering some 10000 questions. Allthrough the I and most colleagues have observed this rule and thus we have not created havoc by contending that som equeals are mor equal than others.
So; Do not discard either the experience or the argument.
Kirill Semenov wrote:
I\'m all against this line of permissiveness in KudoZ. We should not do all the work for some of out \"colleagues\" nor have we suffer from their endless demands for help which more than often leave us even without this simple and human \"thank you\". I know without a doubt that there are people who use proZ as a kind of \"answering machine\" which allows to do any job better. In this way we do help our fellow translators, we just do their work for them, and this is disgusting. 
Right! You should not do anybody\'s work unless you consent to do it. If you do not consent: Don\'t do work! (KudoZ Golden Rule)
ProZ \"answering machine\"? KudoZ is an answering machine if you want to call it that. If you do not want to answer: Don\'t! (KudoZ Golden Rule)
If you do not want to \"do their work for them\": Don\'t! (KudoZ Golden Rule)
How could this be controversial?
Mats
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 08:28
Mitglied (2004)
Englisch > Russisch
+ ...
The main problem is that people who use proZ as "know-all" device still get their goal. Points are the reason (I've answered less than 3000 questions, but I do know this). There are always people who are ready to answer any question to get their points. I do not have such an option but you as moderator can probably get some statistics. Non-professional or abusive (I mean 20+ questions per day) askers still gather their abundant harvest of answers...
Some time ago I proposed a system... See more The main problem is that people who use proZ as "know-all" device still get their goal. Points are the reason (I've answered less than 3000 questions, but I do know this). There are always people who are ready to answer any question to get their points. I do not have such an option but you as moderator can probably get some statistics. Non-professional or abusive (I mean 20+ questions per day) askers still gather their abundant harvest of answers...
Some time ago I proposed a system when the number of your questions depends directly of the number of your good (won) answers. I still believe this is how it has to be: first help your fellow colleague, then get your right to ask for help twice. My personal opinion, of course.
Mats Wiman wrote:
Kirill Semenov wrote:
I'm all against this line of permissiveness in KudoZ. We should not do all the work for some of out "colleagues" nor have we suffer from their endless demands for help which more than often leave us even without this simple and human "thank you". I know without a doubt that there are people who use proZ as a kind of "answering machine" which allows to do any job better. In this way we do help our fellow translators, we just do their work for them, and this is disgusting.
Right! You should not do anybody's work unless you consent to do it. If you do not consent: Don't do work! (KudoZ Golden Rule)
ProZ "answering machine"? KudoZ is an answering machine if you want to call it that. If you do not want to answer: Don't! (KudoZ Golden Rule)
If you do not want to "do their work for them": Don't! (KudoZ Golden Rule)
How could this be controversial?
Mats ▲ Collapse
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Catherine Bolton
Local time: 07:28
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken | Begging the question | Jun 2, 2004 |
Mats,
It seems you're begging the question.
More to the point, I've just checked FAQ + KudoZ rules, and there IS NO SUCH golden rule. What is the source of this rule?
As an aside, citing how many Kudoz/Browniz you have does not indicate experience (in the "golden rule" arena - no offense meant to your language skills) but essentially how long you've been member (takes a while to rack up points) and how many questions you've been willing to answer. Not quite the same thing.
... See more Mats,
It seems you're begging the question.
More to the point, I've just checked FAQ + KudoZ rules, and there IS NO SUCH golden rule. What is the source of this rule?
As an aside, citing how many Kudoz/Browniz you have does not indicate experience (in the "golden rule" arena - no offense meant to your language skills) but essentially how long you've been member (takes a while to rack up points) and how many questions you've been willing to answer. Not quite the same thing.
[Edited at 2004-06-02 20:37]
[Edited at 2004-06-02 20:37] ▲ Collapse
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[Edited at 2004-06-13 15:11]
| | | | | Not Jumping The Gun: Part 2 | Jun 2, 2004 |
Marijke Singer wrote:
Are we not jumping the gun a bit?
The asker did point out it was a "homework/test question" and as such I cannot see anything wrong with that. Why not assume it was a language student who was really nervous about handing in her or his homework and stumbled upon ProZ. This student probably thought it was great. A place to check whether her or his homework was OK. Why do we always have to assume that they are out to abuse the system?
My first instinct as well. It would've been better to assume ignorance of KudoZ rules or not to assume ill will than to go to the forum and denounce the member. Easy enough to contact ANY moderator who can rapidly get to the bottom of things. Very easy to go to the forum and make (unfounded) accusations or abuse, misuse, etc.
Some facts:
1) The "this is homework/from a test" feature was installed to stop the very accusations/suspicions that prompted this thread. Apparently, people who should ignore these questions still continue to be bothered by the presence of questions asked from homework/tests. They shouldn't.
2) Proz.com is not reserved for pro translators as such (pro translator being defined as someone who earns a living from T&I). There are and always will be novices, students and plain language enthusiasts. It's a public site after all. There will always be people who will post questions that most pros will consider too easy. That is why we have "easy" and "pro", and the feature above.
3) There is still no set limit in the number of questions that may be posted by members. However, there is a tacit agreement among members of some SCs (the EnEs, for example) that 10 (or 15) should be the limit. This has been discussed ad nauseum by moderators and staff and there is still no consensus. I don't want to quote Henry but it has been left to individual moderators to decide on what this fluid limit should be. Please wait a bit longer. The solution will probably satisfy everyone: from the laissez-faire attitude of Mats to the solid-limit camp.
Again I'd like to emphasize that it would be best to first clarify things behind-the-scenes, so to speak, than make unfounded accusations in the forum.
Marcus
| | | | Monika@ProZ
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 01:28
Englisch > Slowakisch
+ ...
I went to the Italian>English section today and saw all the questions lined up. I simply called it quits for the day. After reading some of the answers in this forum though, I'll make sure that next time I'll bother to tell the person to look elsewhere for help.
I have no problem with homework/test category as such. But if someone needs help with more than two or three expressions, the person went over his/her head whether it is at school or in translation business and a skilled tr... See more I went to the Italian>English section today and saw all the questions lined up. I simply called it quits for the day. After reading some of the answers in this forum though, I'll make sure that next time I'll bother to tell the person to look elsewhere for help.
I have no problem with homework/test category as such. But if someone needs help with more than two or three expressions, the person went over his/her head whether it is at school or in translation business and a skilled translator should pick on that and refuse to answer. I always feel uneasy when I stumble upon a bad translation and feel bad for the person who commissioned such translation. I want to make sure I do not support it.
And this is where I have a problem with Mats' "skip it" response. There are people who want to accumulate points and do not shy away from answering questions that should not be posted in a professional forum or should not be awarded with points because they are outright trivial and anyone who opens Lesson 1 of a textbook can come up with the answer. And yes, I could skip the 15-20 questions by a single incompetent asker but I do not think ProZ should be supporting cheating in homework and testing. Because that's what it is in this case. Or maybe the asker just wants to save money and instead of hiring a translator simply waits for eager ProZ members to chip in and volunteer their expertise. ▲ Collapse
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Szymon Cegielka
Polen
Local time: 07:28
Mitglied (2005)
Englisch > Polnisch
+ ...
| Why don't we all just calm a bit... it's getting really hot :) | Jun 2, 2004 |
Monika Koskova wrote:
... And yes, I could skip the 15-20 questions by a single incompetent asker but I do not think ProZ should be supporting cheating in homework and testing. Because that\'s what it is in this case. Or maybe the asker just wants to save money and instead of hiring a translator simply waits for eager ProZ members to chip in and volunteer their expertise.
Why do we always assume the worst? In my opinion this is a translator who just learns how to work / starts working in this job... and it is not as easy as it looks - I know what I say because I have been there - no-one taught me how to do the job.. my first few translations were a disaster when I look on them now... for the first 2-3 years I had jobs once in a blue moon... and as often as I could when I got a chance to be tested by a new agency / client / whatever, I took advantage of (or, as some would say, abused) the Proz website... and hey - some time passed, I learnt and learnt, got new clients / jobs / answers to my questions and gradually I started getting better...
From what I have seen being a translator is getting easier as one goes further along the road - you gain experience, hence you get better.. however starting out can be a tragic experience (not only for the beginner but also for their clients )
ProZ is one of the few chances to allow such newbies become better... I have been asking a LOT of questions when I started, yet now I suppose I answer more than I ask... and this probably can be the case in this situation in a matter of a year or two...
and just one more thing - this person was NOT cheating on my ProZ colleagues - they HAD indicated that the sentences were taken from a test / homework. How do we know if:
- the translator hadn\'t already translated it and just wanted to make sure?
- getting the assignment is life or death situation for the person and that is why they wanted everything to be just perfect?
To summ up (as I see this all got a bit chaotic ) - I agree with the rule: \"Don\'t like it? Don\'t answer\" it works fine with me
| | | | Henk Peelen
Niederlande
Local time: 07:28
Mitglied (2003)
Deutsch > Niederländisch
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | I think there are two golden rules | Jun 3, 2004 |
which should be applied together or separately
1) comment the person who is deemed abusing the site in an appropriate way
2) stay away
That's what in my opinion happens if someone is deemed an abuser:
somebody or more persons warn him / her and all answerers stay away, so the abuser clearly feels nobody agrees with his / her conduct.
Indeed, in some cases the maximum allowed number of questions is quite low, due to the fact the questions show the asker... See more which should be applied together or separately
1) comment the person who is deemed abusing the site in an appropriate way
2) stay away
That's what in my opinion happens if someone is deemed an abuser:
somebody or more persons warn him / her and all answerers stay away, so the abuser clearly feels nobody agrees with his / her conduct.
Indeed, in some cases the maximum allowed number of questions is quite low, due to the fact the questions show the asker has no basic knowledge or whatever.
[Edited at 2004-06-03 03:54] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sarah Ponting
Italien
Local time: 07:28
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Try looking before passing judgement! | Jun 3, 2004 |
Szymon Cegielka wrote:
Why do we always assume the worst? In my opinion this is a translator who just learns how to work / starts working in this job... and it is not as easy as it looks - I know what I say because I have been there - no-one taught me how to do the job..
Well, I know what I say because I have been there (the It>En questions!) and I can assure you that the terms and phrases that we're discussing here should have been no problem for anyone even slightly competent. It is a clear case of abuse, although I feel sure that the moderator would have stepped in had she seen the questions. Don't be so quick to pass judgement without first having the relevant information!
Henk Peelen wrote:
I think there are two golden rules which should be applied together or separately
1) comment the person who is deemed abusing the site in an appropriate way
2) stay away
That's what in my opinion happens if someone is deemed an abuser:
somebody or more persons warn him / her and all answerers stay away, so the abuser clearly feels nobody agrees with his / her conduct.
I thoroughly agree - I'm sure the asker would have posted far MORE questions if this hadn't happened! However, abusing the system by posting so many questions is unfair on others because it effectively pushes the perfectly acceptable questions posted by colleagues (which fortunately still represent the vast majority) right down to the bottom of the list or off the screen completely, reducing their visibility to those who may have been able to help. And, as Monika rightly mentioned, it also causes many to abandon the area altogether - she did, I did and I'm sure many others did yesterday. I feel that some of the people here who don't see the need for any restriction on such questions are simply trying to notch up as many points as possible and are none too sensitive to the real needs of their colleagues. I also fully support her feelings on test translations: you're not doing the person who commissioned the job any favours by answering an inordinate number of queries - especially when you consider the average length of a test.
Sarah
[Edited at 2004-06-03 05:17]
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