| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Confession of a KudoZ limits supporter Initiator des Themas: Nikki Graham
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Vito Smolej
Deutschland
Local time: 00:17
Mitglied (2004)
Englisch > Slowenisch
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SITE LOCALIZER
This is a community based on respect and goodwill. Some users may feel they are too good to share a common space with other users, but mocking people or laughing at them is not in line
I meant the penalty box (actually wrote it and the stroke it out, because I thought it evident) without any names: make the creators feel shame,the anonymous kind of shame. Argument not ad hominem but at his or her creation.
Otherwise, how am I to help the person who suggests "light side" for "lichte Seite"? Taking the answer lightly was my suggestion - as well as highlighting it.
PS: I would add of course questions as well. Asking for eye lashes in Italian is BS, that plugs OUR (not Henry's!) bandwith. This applies to "lichte Seite" question as well of course. But, let the meek settle the site etc...
[Edited at 2006-08-01 17:07]
| | | | Mats Wiman 
Schweden
Local time: 00:17
Mitglied (2000)
Deutsch > Schwedisch
+ ...
In stillem Gedenken | How about peaceful coexistence | Aug 1, 2006 |
Nikki Graham wrote:
b) I thought this was a site for (dare I say professional?) translators, not "everyone"
Dear Nikki,
Don't you know that it is, but not exclusively. I'm sure you are one of these pros.
What I and others are trying to say is, that there is no contradiction between the whole array of members and users and there being a great number of true professionals.
They not only should coexist. The thrive from it or IMHO should thrive from it.
I have used the metaphor "Perfect flowers do not grow out of perfect soil. They thrive on rich humus consisting of a great variety of substances (suggestions/members)."
Big trees were once small and a pros should and could recognize that.
What is too much for someone should be controlled with selective/dashboard tools, not limits.
[Edited at 2006-08-01 17:02]
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Nikki Graham wrote:
a) Have no idea what your reference to people's contributions is trying to say
All I meant was that answering KudoZ is not the only way to contribute to the development of the site and the sharing of knowledge. There is no other meaning behind my words.
b) I thought this was a site for (dare I say professional?) translators, not "everyone"
I thought, and still think, this site was a community open to everyone. I guess we just have a different approach.
c) I don't believe I said anything about shutting doors, so please don't twist what I say
You are right, you did not mention shutting the door, you talked about opening the door wide and letting everyone in resulting in a mess.
In any case, I opened my post saying that I had probably missed your point and closed it saying I felt bewildered.
I still am, but I don't have anything further to say on this topic.
Ciao, D.
| | | | TonyTK
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
| In case anyone's wondering, ... | Aug 1, 2006 |
... the Italian for "eyelashes" appears to be "ciglia" - something I as a smoker find highly improbable.
"mind your own business"
is (apparently) "fatti gli affari tuo". I wonder what the Italian for "Fatty, mind your own business" is?
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| Great post, Nikki! | Aug 1, 2006 |
Hi Nikki,
Thanks for your outstanding post. There a number of posts in this thread that I would like to pick up on.
I will try to make some time later today to share some thoughts and strategies on the quality issue, and let's all come up with a plan together.
In the meantime, let's stay focused on our shared objective (quality) and keep it courteous and professional!
Henry
| | | | Mats Wiman
Schweden
Local time: 00:17
Mitglied (2000)
Deutsch > Schwedisch
+ ...
In stillem Gedenken
I am convinced that many of you have perfectly honorable reasons for demanding limits (in order to avoid inundation) although it is difficult to see why this blunted tool should be chosen.
From the start, one could deselect non-pro question if one couldn't fly over an "I love you".
With the Dashboard, everyone can deselect any asker, fields, specialties etc., not to be too much bothered, so I can't see any reason for general limits at all.
So much for logic.
What i... See more I am convinced that many of you have perfectly honorable reasons for demanding limits (in order to avoid inundation) although it is difficult to see why this blunted tool should be chosen.
From the start, one could deselect non-pro question if one couldn't fly over an "I love you".
With the Dashboard, everyone can deselect any asker, fields, specialties etc., not to be too much bothered, so I can't see any reason for general limits at all.
So much for logic.
What infuriates me and others is the attitudes of superiority of some, clad in various forms. Here is a selection:
"Should we help people that haven't a clue?"
"Clueless people should be kept out"
"People who can't look it up in a dictionary should not be allowed......"
"People who evidently have taken on jobs they are not qualified for should not be allowed.........."
"What I am talking about is people with a minimal knowledge of the relevant languages dragging the general standard down by getting hopelessly out of their depth."
"buy a dictionary (stoopid)"
"native speaker of (target language) my a***"
Judgements are to be passed by askers and outsourcers none else. What we as individuals think, we should keep to ourselves=Mind your own business! ▲ Collapse
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More important as to limit the questions, is to limit the possibility that bad answers can be integrated into the glossary.
Questions can be ignored but some entries in the glossary are dangerous, for example wen a ON is interpreted as a OFF in electricity can be dead serious!
So we need to start cleaning this glossary!
Regards
| | | | | Of questions, answers, agrees and attitudes | Aug 1, 2006 |
I've been following and participating in this community only for the past 7 months so I have little to say of its historical trends.
I totally agree with Fernando that the problem is mostly to limit the possibility of horrible answers being entered in the glossary.
I also have to agree with Daniela (ciao Daniela!!) when she says that this site is not only for professionals. Maybe "a professional site open to all" sounds better to my ears, seeing that anyone can ask qu... See more I've been following and participating in this community only for the past 7 months so I have little to say of its historical trends.
I totally agree with Fernando that the problem is mostly to limit the possibility of horrible answers being entered in the glossary.
I also have to agree with Daniela (ciao Daniela!!) when she says that this site is not only for professionals. Maybe "a professional site open to all" sounds better to my ears, seeing that anyone can ask questions.
I also noticed the "eyelash" question posted this morning, but it is not the first time this happens. I thought that the "non pro" option was there exactly for this purpose. i.e. if some-one in Timbuctu needs the Italian translation of "eyelashes", I don't think that answering the question makes anyone waste all that time, nor renders the site less professional. It just is helping someone out. And probably not a translator. What amazed me was seeing the 8 "agrees" to the answer. I sometimes received even 10 agrees to an answer. If it is the only answer given, anyone would imagine that 3-4 agrees would do. And obviously those "agrees" come in big numbers only when the questions are very very easy.
I really appreciated Nikki's initial post. It was critical, but well reasoned and very well motivated. In the right tone.
Lately I am seeing that the tones and attitudes in many forums just end up in personal and incostructive bickering.
It is more difficult to keep a pleasant and constructive attitude when posting: the tone of the voice is lacking, no facial expression, we sometimes write in a language that isn't our native one. But I feel we should make an effort to learn to discuss and debate in a more civil way.
I apologise for the preaching, but I feel that these forums could be really much more useful if we all put more effort in our postings.
P.S. Tony: "Fatty, fatti i fatti tuoi!"  good!
[Edited at 2006-08-01 18:29] ▲ Collapse
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| Objective of KudoZ | Aug 1, 2006 |
Could KudoZ ever become something like this http://www.wordreference.com/es/translation.asp?tranword=potato&dict=enes, where you have, on the one hand, some "serious" (professional?) entries and, on the other hand, some alternative (community-oriented) space for translations that cannot be easily found in dictionaries (like idioms or regional nuances)? Or is the ... See more Could KudoZ ever become something like this http://www.wordreference.com/es/translation.asp?tranword=potato&dict=enes, where you have, on the one hand, some "serious" (professional?) entries and, on the other hand, some alternative (community-oriented) space for translations that cannot be easily found in dictionaries (like idioms or regional nuances)? Or is the space for "serious/professional" terminology reserved only for the glossary databases posted by users of the site and then KudoZ is to be taken as a kind of "miscellaneous" terminology database?
This is not clear to me. I am curious to know what the Proz.com management believes is the real objective of KudoZ. Also, to what degree is the Proz.com management willing to take into account (or discuss) site users' (member or not) ideas and suggestions to improve things?
Thanks,
Ivette ▲ Collapse
| | | | df49f (X)
Frankreich
Local time: 00:17
| projection ?? | Aug 1, 2006 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
What I am criticizing ist the attitude of a number of limit-lovers ilt on a feeling of superiority visavi the less experienced....[/quote]
This statement (following many others to the same tune on this thread and others) is untrue, unfair, misleading, truth-twisting and ultimately insulting...
No one looks down on no one... I'm sure most of us all know young and inexperienced but intelligent and gifted beginners whom we help out/mentor/outsource to/proofread etc... on this site or other sites and even in real life. None of us has forgotten what it was like to be a beginner. But most of us also know of many self-appointed "translators" (newbies and old-timers alike) on this site and in real life who should seriously consider finding another bread-earning activity... thinking and saying so isn't showing any kind of feeling of superiority, it's just observing a fact, a reality.
Your repeated aberrant accusations, denigrating the persons and characters of those who disagree with your views, putting words in our mouths and intentions in our head, are getting really tiresome and extremely insulting.
df
| | | | Dyran Altenburg (X)
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 18:17
Englisch > Spanisch
+ ...
| A work in progress | Aug 1, 2006 |
ICL wrote:
This is not clear to me. I am curious to know what the Proz.com management believes is the real objective of KudoZ.
I think Kudoz is meant to feed the KOG, which in turn is meant to feed Wikiwords, which in turn is meant to become the "mother of all dictionaries/glossaries" (all the words in all the languages... imagine that), which in turn will give everyone involved a lot of prestige and bragging rights to last a lifetime.
That's the what, pretty much... the how is kind of fuzzy. Apparently it will require endless [wo]man-hours from hard-working, sympathetic fans who may or may not have a linguistics background.
But then again that's what happens when you deal with a free-for-all, volunteer-based beta project, right?
--
Dyran
[Edited at 2006-08-01 19:37]
| | | | | You don't speak for me, Dyran | Aug 1, 2006 |
Dyran Altenburg wrote:
ICL wrote:
This is not clear to me. I am curious to know what the Proz.com management believes is the real objective of KudoZ.
I think Kudoz is meant to feed the KOG, which in turn is meant to feed Wikiwords, which in turn is meant to become the "mother of all dictionaries/glossaries" (all the words in all the languages... imagine that), which in turn will give everyone involved a lot of prestige and bragging rights to last a lifetime.
Dyran, with all due respect the question was directed at ProZ.com "management", and given that you have stated plainly that you don't trust me, I'll thank you to decline to speculate on our/my behalf. People get misled.
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IanW (X)
Local time: 00:17
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
Mats Wiman wrote:
What infuriates me and others is the attitudes of superiority of some, clad in various forms. Here is a selection:
"Should we help people that haven't a clue?"
"Clueless people should be kept out"
"People who can't look it up in a dictionary should not be allowed......"
"People who evidently have taken on jobs they are not qualified for should not be allowed.........."
"What I am talking about is people with a minimal knowledge of the relevant languages dragging the general standard down by getting hopelessly out of their depth."
"buy a dictionary (stoopid)"
"native speaker of (target language) my a***"
I really don't think anyone has anything against novices - we're all learning and that's a part of our job - but there is a world of difference between that and people who are repeatedly "hopelessly out of their depth". And personally, if I didn't consider myself "superior" to this sort of nonsense, I would have long since looked for another career.
I'm sure we have all taken on jobs we shouldn't have taken on at some stage in our career, but it generally doesn't and shouldn't happen a second time. So if some people make a career out of being the translator equivalent of a damsel in distress, then perhaps you can understand why it annoys Nikki, myself and most people who aren't obsessed with KudoZ points.
As for the examples you gave, I agree wholeheartedly with the first five - and so, in my opinion, do the vast majority of colleagues who take an interest in the KudoZ system. The last two, wrenched out of context as usual, were intended as a bit of light relief during a long and strenuous discussion. And if you read a few lines down in the posting in question, it says quite clearly that this is a joke. (www.proz.com/topic/51612 - pages 11 and 12)
I wouldn't dream of saying "Buy a dictionary, stoopid" - rudeness is not something I stoop to if I can help it, Mats, but I would be much happier if the rules allowed me to suggest that askers posting basic questions should buy at least a pocket dictionary. And if any "translator" with delusions of adequacy takes on a job without even a basic knowledge and a basic dictionary, then they deserve all they get.
Judgements are to be passed by askers and outsourcers none else. What we as individuals think, we should keep to ourselves=Mind your own business!
As a translator, you are surely aware of register, and "Mind your own business" does not mean "Judgements are to be passed by askers and outsourcers none else. What we as individuals think, we should keep to ourselves" any more than "f**k off" means "please remove yourself from my presence". Choose your words more carefully if you are not sure what impact they will have.
And, more to the point, when do you ever keep your thoughts to yourself?
[Edited at 2006-08-01 20:44]
| | | | | Sauce for the goose... | Aug 1, 2006 |
Ian Winick wrote:
And, more to the point, when do you ever keep your thoughts to yourself?[Edited at 2006-08-01 20:44]
Quite.
Did this little gem from our Swedish moderator friend slip under your radar?
"I am planning to write an article "ProZ.com what it is, what it isn't and what it should be - a member's view". Hardly what I'd call keeping one's thoughts to oneself. Not, of course, that I'll be forced to read it...
Someone with more time than I have could perhaps count the number of times the word "should" has appeared in Mr. Wiman's posts in this thread, I have an inkling it could be an instructive exercise
| | | | | Quick thoughts for now... quality and KudoZ vs. Wikiwords | Aug 1, 2006 |
With apologies for not having the opportunity to go into details right now, a few thoughts:
- There is a quality issue in the KOG (KudoZ open glossary). Boosting the quality of our terminological resources for *reference* purposes is a goal (of course!) Thanks, Nikki, Kirill, Fernando, Steffen, Andy and Daniela for your ideas and interest in helping in this respect! (I also really liked your posting, Francesca, and your parallel example, ICL--probably there is something to be learne... See more With apologies for not having the opportunity to go into details right now, a few thoughts:
- There is a quality issue in the KOG (KudoZ open glossary). Boosting the quality of our terminological resources for *reference* purposes is a goal (of course!) Thanks, Nikki, Kirill, Fernando, Steffen, Andy and Daniela for your ideas and interest in helping in this respect! (I also really liked your posting, Francesca, and your parallel example, ICL--probably there is something to be learned there.)
- KudoZ (proper, as opposed to the archive/KOG) is about "helping". That an archive develops is intentional, but we should not reduce the effectiveness of KudoZ as a platform for "terms help" simply to ensure a "clean" archive.
- Making tighter limits might indirectly result in a higher quality archive. (It might also have the opposite effect.) But I favor the approach of addressing the quality of the archives directly, ie. in the archives. This means "cleanup".
- Wikiwords (thanks, Vito!) is about making a reliable "reference". In this sense, it replaces the KOG and the "KOG cleanup" that was discussed a few years ago. At Wikiwords (.org), we take what comes out of the KudoZ Q&A, we refine it, translate into additional languages, and make the whole thing available to the world (not just the industry).
In short, whereas KudoZ is designed to be a "help network" (albeit one from which terms can be extracted and searched), Wikiwords is designed to be an "authoritative reference."
- Wikiwords is *not* an authoritative reference right now. Far from it. To make a reliable reference of all terms in all languages is a challenge, to say the least. Those who think it is impossible need not participate.
As things stand, a group of fifty or so volunteers has been experimented since last week on quality control in Wikiwords. Anyone who wants to join in the experiment is invited to contact colin at proz.com.
As Viktor will remember, I gave a presentation on these matters in Berlin. I'll try to make my powerpoint slides available here... ▲ Collapse
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