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Diplomstudium
lasse...zu Hause für einen Blödsinn aus
Dec 23, 2010 17:43
13 yrs ago
18 viewers *
Deutsch term

Dr.

Deutsch > Englisch Rechts- und Patentwesen Recht (allgemein) Education, specifically titles used in law
I have a problem with titles and am not quite sure how to resolve it.

The CEO of a large (German-speaking) auditing firm is Dr. X and he has his degree in law. Apparently there have been several comments (with reference to their previous annual reports and other documents in English) that in the English-speaking world, only people in the medical profession use the title Dr., not lawyers. I had never really thought about this before and looked it up, it seems that there may be some truth to that. The problem is what alternative do we have?

For quick reference I looked at Wikipedia and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_law#United_States
There are so many different possibilities, I really couldn't even begin to look for an equivalent not knowing what his exact qualifications are - plus we generally try not to mess with academic titles, right?

I'm working on the firm's annual report and need to come up with a reasonable alternative or explanation in the next week.

Could a kind lawyer or somebody closely familiar with the field help me out here?

Thanks!
Proposed translations (Englisch)
4 +3 leave it out
5 +2 Dr. X, Doctor of Law or X, Doctor of Law
5 Doctor of Philosophy in Law (PhD)
4 Mr. X, doctor juris
4 -1 Mr. X, a lawyer
References
Debretts Guide to Doctors

Discussion

British Diana Dec 24, 2010:
Frau Merkel Our German Bundeskanzlerin Angela Merkel has a doctorate in physics but I don't think she is ever called Dr Merkel, is she? However, this is not because she now has a "higher" title, as the alternative is often just Frau Merkel. Or do you think she doesn't want it?
I would say it is safest to ask the man himself. If he is REALLY SO important he will have one or more PAs who are used to dealing with this sort of enquiry.
David Wright Dec 23, 2010:
Not as PhD having worked at a university in Austria, I can say with reasonable confidence that a Dr is NOT a PhD. there are official equalences within the EU, and I don't think this is one of them.
Michael Kucharski Dec 23, 2010:
Grundsätzlich würde ich philgoddard zustimmen. Die entscheidende Frage ist: Für wen ist der Text (= die Übersetzung) bestimmt? Für Europäer, Asiaten, Russen ? In diesem Fall würde ich den Titel hinzufügen. Für Engländer und Amerikaner etc. würde ich Dr. weglassen. Die betroffenen Personen haben sicher nichts dagegen, wenn man ihnen mitteilt, dass dies z.B. in Amerika nicht üblich ist. Schließlich wollen auch Führungskräfte nicht altmodisch wirken, sondern sich mit der "Weltsprache" Englisch im Einklang wissen.
James Heppe-Smith Dec 23, 2010:
What exactly does your client want? I would suggest asking them! Perhaps it may be appropriate to list his academic qualifications at the end of his signature block in his name:

I. M. Pretentious PhD DPhil MA (Cantab)

As appropriate and leave the Doctor bit out at the front all together. In text referring to him I have seen the use of Dr Pretentious in both English and German reports and texts.
philgoddard Dec 23, 2010:
Also, you say there have been previous comments about this - so other people obviously agree with me!
Jennifer Gruendler (asker) Dec 23, 2010:
No, I haven't made up my mind - I've been leaving Dr. in the documents and the customer has come back with this question so I'm rethinking it and not quite sure what would be proper at this point. Although it's looking more and more like it might just be better to drop it. I really appreciate the input everybody is giving me!
philgoddard Dec 23, 2010:
It sounds like you've already made up your mind, Jennifer - but I do think you should bear in mind that you're trying to make the document look as "English" as possible. Many people in English-speaking cultures regard the use of Dr before your name, or PhD after it, as somewhat pretentious unless you're a doctor of medicine. I have a degree which I worked hard for, but I don't put MA after my name. Likewise, the fact that your CEO is a doctor of law is not relevant to the company's annual report.
Jennifer Gruendler (asker) Dec 23, 2010:
He's Swiss and yes, they love their titles, too. I also leave off Dr. if combined with Dr. Prof. but would never drop Dr. since, as somebody once told me, they worked so hard to get the title, they would be mad if we dropped it! I may have to enquire about his actual degree - maybe he even knows what it should be (but he's not being bothered with this discussion).
James Heppe-Smith Dec 23, 2010:
Dr is OK, but better if you add his post-nominals too. Although frowned upon in the UK it is usual to see PhD, DBA or DPhil (perhaps he has one of these) referred to as Dr in the appropriate circles. I am sure if you miss off the Dr from his name, you will hear about it from them!

Good luck.
David Wright Dec 23, 2010:
Austrian or German Might make a difference - the Austrians really do love their titles (as Georg Mikes wrote, the title Dr. before your name merely means you come from Central Europe). I tend to keep titles as they are (and have done for the odd annual report). I would actually ask the company what they want to do.

Proposed translations

+3
6 Min.
Selected

leave it out

German is a lot more punctilious about titles than English, and I would leave it out as they're not a doctor of medicine. The Guardian style guide, which makes a very good bible, says:

"[Use] at first mention for medical and scientific doctors and doctors of divinity (not, for example, a politician who happens to have a PhD in history); thereafter, just use surname except in leading articles."

For similar reasons, I always leave out the Dr in "Prof. Dr" - the professorship outranks the doctorate.


Example sentence:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/d

Peer comment(s):
neutral James Heppe-Smith : Although the Professor is an appointment and not a degree... I would be tempted to leave it in as he is a German and would probably have a small MI if it was left out. They find Doctor titles most important here. Edit to add: :)
9 Min.
Thanks for your comment, but I disagree. German also has long sentences with verbs at the end, but that doesn't mean we should keep them in our translations out of respect :)
agree Michele Fauble
2 Stunden
agree Lancashireman : And if the client still wants his title included, then preferably without the intrusive black dot.
2 Stunden
agree AllegroTrans
6 Stunden
disagree Thomas Roberts : If someone calls themself Dr in Germany it's because they have a PhD. At least in the UK, whoever chooses to use the title in public is commonly referred to as Dr (e.g. Dr John Reid, politician), though some people to not (e.g. Gordon Brown, politician).
15 Stunden
agree Harald Moelzer (medical-translator)
18 Stunden
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks - I think I will send the firm a recommendation to clear this with Dr. X but that it should probably be left out. I will also include Heart's proposal of X, Doctor of Law, as an alternative if he still wants his degree recognized. Thanks for the great discussion, everybody! It was really quite enlightening."
-1
23 Min.
Deutsch term (edited): Dr. X

Mr. X, a lawyer

This is understood by any English speaker, but doesn't sound pompous enough.
Peer comment(s):
neutral British Diana : Surely there are lawyers who don't have doctorates= this doesn't tell one anything
15 Stunden
disagree Rosa Paredes : No. This is no doctor and the correct ay to mention the law degree would be : Mr. X Attorney-at -law
2 Tage 34 Min.
Nonsense! "Attorney" means "lawyer" only in the US. In GB "attorney" means "agent".
Something went wrong...
+2
44 Min.

Dr. X, Doctor of Law or X, Doctor of Law

I would never leave out a doctor title, no matter what the subject area for all the reasons stated in the discussion.
In the US and other countries, there is the J.D. degree = Juris Doctor in Latin or doctor of Jurisprudence. However, in documents of this sort, it is hard to tell what country the person actually got their degree and in some cases, speakers of the target language might not even know what the abbreviation stands for some titles. So I would write it out to be certain it is understood.
I also would not put a J.D. after his name because the degree he has may not technically be a J.D., it may be the Swiss equivalent which may have another abbreviation - or he may be from some other country that confers doctor of law degrees but uses a different abbreviation.
And yes, it IS important to know that the CEO in an annual report has a doctorate in law - this is the company's face to the world and they need to put their best foot forward and show the caliber of people working with them.
Note from asker:
Thanks! I'll be adding this as an alternative!
Peer comment(s):
agree James Heppe-Smith : I tend to agree with you in this Heart. Although there is some (probably valid) argument for leaving it out.
7 Min.
agree Gabriella Bertelmann : agree
4 Stunden
neutral Thomas Roberts : isn't JD in the states the equivalent of an LLB (i.e. not a PhD)?
14 Stunden
neutral Lancashireman : Sorry, but if 'a certain peer' says 'agree' and nothing else, that's a clear indicator that the asker needs to look elsewhere.
1 Tag 2 Stunden
Something went wrong...
4 Stunden

Mr. X, doctor juris

That might swing it. That's what Swiss lawyers call themselves anyway. Otherwise, howzabout "Monsignor"? That's due for a revival.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Thomas Roberts : isn't JD in the states the equivalent of an LLB (i.e. not a PhD)?
11 Stunden
It beateth me.
Something went wrong...
2 Tage 59 Min.

Doctor of Philosophy in Law (PhD)

http://www.law.ubc.ca/graduate/p-programs-PHD.html
The PhD in Law provides rigorous and advanced training for outstanding graduate students ....
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

50 Min.
Reference:

Debretts Guide to Doctors

This may assist.

As it says though, the more senior medical doctors tend to be Misters, go figure!
Reference:

http://www.debretts.com/forms-of-address/professions/academics/doctor.aspx

Peer comments on this reference comment:
disagree Textklick : N.B. "...the more senior medical doctors tend to be Misters": (?) Qualified doctors/physicians style themselves 'Dr', qualified surgeons style themselves 'Mr'. Simple fact. (unless I have misread your reference).
3 Tage 18 Stunden
No, we completely agree with each other. However, not relevant for the OP's question which is about a lawyer with a doctorate. I always find it "quirky" that surgeons (and indeed most consultants) call themselves Mr, that was all I was saying.
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