| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4] > | Please, do not ever be condescending Initiator des Themas: Mats Wiman
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Kim Metzger 
Mexiko
Local time: 08:13
Deutsch > Englisch
Mats Wiman wrote:
1. ... the thing that bothers me is the word 'Sorry', which definitely is condescending and therefore inappropriate.
2. We should not assume too much about the intentions of askers. Neither should we elevate ourselves to being judges.
Answerers are contributors, not tricksters, idiots or "condescending" by offering suggestions.
3. You said: "So, what to do if the answer neither sounds well nor is it correct, but still is offered, usually as a wild guess?"
You know the answer don't you: Note it and go on.
[Edited at 2004-04-27 10:20]
1. No, "sorry" is NOT "definitely condescending" Mats. It's a method some people use to take the edge off the "disagree". Some people react violently to "disagrees" and the peer grader is trying to be diplomatic. You state that "we should not assume too much about the intentions of askers" (I think you meant "answerers" - so why should you assume something about the intentions of peer graders when they choose to use "sorry" to preface their disagree?
2. Neither should we elevate ourselves to being judges. Answerers are contributors, not tricksters, idiots or "condescending" by offering suggestions.
What is peer grading all about? Surely it's empowering colleagues to be "judges" of answers. We are not blind, Mats. We see "tricksters" every day. It's simply a fact of life in KudoZ and everywhere else.
3. "So, what to do if the answer neither sounds well nor is it correct, but still is offered, usually as a wild guess?"
"You know the answer don't you: Note it and go on."
- Go on? Don't peer grade? Don't disagree?
We all approach KudoZ in our own way. Some people like to use "sorry" when disagreeing with an answer. Some people like to say "thank you" every time they receive an agree. Others think that sounds sycophantic. This could well be a cultural difference. I don't think we ought to be telling people how to comment on answers other than that they need to follow the rules of etiquette.
Cheers, Kim
[Edited at 2004-04-28 15:57]
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Spanien
Local time: 15:13
Mitglied
Katalanisch > Englisch
+ ...
Mats,
You wrote the following:
"In a heated discussion on Dec 22 I used the expression 'Mind your own business' ("My suggestion: Mind your own business and ....."). See: http://www.proz.com/topic/16839?start=0
For me at the time, it was really a translation of a Swedish fairly wise saying.
(Something like 'Manage your own affairs, not those of others').
... See more Mats,
You wrote the following:
"In a heated discussion on Dec 22 I used the expression 'Mind your own business' ("My suggestion: Mind your own business and ....."). See: http://www.proz.com/topic/16839?start=0
For me at the time, it was really a translation of a Swedish fairly wise saying.
(Something like 'Manage your own affairs, not those of others').
Embarassingly, I yesterday learnt that 'Mind your own business' is regarded as very offensive by English natives, being more or less synonymous with 'Piss off'."
Mats, might I suggest that this is a similar case. One of usage. Perhaps you could consult the same sources you used the last time.
"English natives" do not think "Sorry" to be anything other than polite. I would suggest you're attributing other intentions to its use when there are, in fact, none.
Saludos,
Andy
[Edited at 2004-04-27 14:47] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Claudia Iglesias
Chile
Local time: 11:13
Mitglied (2002)
Spanisch > Französisch
+ ...
| Cultural problem | Apr 27, 2004 |
This topic reminds me a discussion about those who said "Thanks" when they got an agree to their answer.
It's so great to say to somebody "you're right!, I wouldn't have said that better, it's exactly what I mean". We know that the other person will appreciate and feel that he's not alone with that opinion. On the opposite side, when I disagree with someone I want to show, as somebody said, that it's nothing personal, it's just an opinion, so I wear my gloves (French phrase) and say... See more This topic reminds me a discussion about those who said "Thanks" when they got an agree to their answer.
It's so great to say to somebody "you're right!, I wouldn't have said that better, it's exactly what I mean". We know that the other person will appreciate and feel that he's not alone with that opinion. On the opposite side, when I disagree with someone I want to show, as somebody said, that it's nothing personal, it's just an opinion, so I wear my gloves (French phrase) and say "Sorry". Just not to hurt feelings, and not at all the interpretation you give to it.
It's amazing how different cultures can interpret the same thing so differently. The discussion about "Thanks" was really amazing too.
If somebody tells me
"Sorry, but this neither sounds well nor is it correct" I find it better than "this neither sounds well nor is it correct". The first one can come from a friend, the other one can't.
[Edited at 2004-04-28 02:15] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Anthony Green
Italien
Local time: 15:13
Italienisch > Englisch
+ ...
| What do KudoZ tricksters do? | Apr 27, 2004 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
We are not blind, Mats. We see "tricksters" every day. It's simply a fact of life in KudoZ and everywhere else.
I think I must be blind because I have never noticed tricksters, at least in the ITA->ENG combination. I'd love to get some tips so that I can recognise them in future...
By the way, I once got my head bitten off by a KudoZ regular for giving him a "neutral" - goodness knows what he'd have done to me if I'd disagreed!
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Kim Metzger
Mexiko
Local time: 08:13
Deutsch > Englisch
| 500,000 Google hits! | Apr 27, 2004 |
Anthony Green wrote:
I think I must be blind because I have never noticed tricksters, at least in the ITA->ENG combination. I'd love to get some tips so that I can recognise them in future...
Well, Anthony, I'm glad you don't have tricksters in ITA->ENG. They do show up in other language pairs, however. How about someone whose answer appears two minutes after the question was asked under the highest confidence level and who justifies his answer with "Supported by 500,000 Google hits!" The answer may well have nothing to do with the context of the question, but the word does exist in English! (or maybe not). The only concern these folks have is to get some KudoZ points, and they may be leading extremely busy lives dashing from one language pair to another - so they really don't have time for all that research and justification stuff.
[Edited at 2004-04-27 15:54]
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[Edited at 2004-06-13 15:20]
| | | | | A translator must have a skin as thick as a rhino's!;-) | Apr 27, 2004 |
There are a lot worse ways to disagree than saying sorry and incidentally as a Brit I agree with everything that's been said about Brits and politeness - we say sorry almost too much and please and thank you really are inbred!
I don't like disagreeing because I know it can offend, but on the other hand if you're going to give an answer you've got to accept that there is a chance that someone might disagree with it and they're well within their rights to do so. You have to have a th... See more There are a lot worse ways to disagree than saying sorry and incidentally as a Brit I agree with everything that's been said about Brits and politeness - we say sorry almost too much and please and thank you really are inbred!
I don't like disagreeing because I know it can offend, but on the other hand if you're going to give an answer you've got to accept that there is a chance that someone might disagree with it and they're well within their rights to do so. You have to have a thick skin as a translator.
As far as native speakers are concerned - Some non-native speakers do give good answers, but what really annoys me is those who translate into a non-native language when they're not qualified to do so and that is when a lot of native speakers feel right to intervene. Being a native speaker doesn't make you a qualified translator, but a good and coherent writing style in your target language and an extensive understanding of the source language does.
Many, many non-native speakers translate into a language other than their own and do so very successfully and competently. However, there are also those who proffer a service they are unable to perform, which can be seen e.g. when they claim to translate into English, which is not their native language, and make forum postings in English that is totally incomprehensible (nothing whatsoever against postings from native speakers - you misunderstood my point, Alish, so I hope this provides clarification).
This posting is not intended to offend - just my observations based on experience.
[Edited at 2004-04-28 16:20] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Claudia Iglesias
Chile
Local time: 11:13
Mitglied (2002)
Spanisch > Französisch
+ ...
| Back to "Sorry" | Apr 27, 2004 |
Thinking about this I come to the conclusion that it can also be related to the language (culture / language, difficult to say where is the limit).
In a French book that I use to teach French, first level, there's a lesson to learn how to start conversation with somebody in the street or in a train Station (unknown person).
"Pardon, Monsieur" or "Excusez-moi, Madame" are the phrases tought to be able to talk to somebody. In Spa... See more Thinking about this I come to the conclusion that it can also be related to the language (culture / language, difficult to say where is the limit).
In a French book that I use to teach French, first level, there's a lesson to learn how to start conversation with somebody in the street or in a train Station (unknown person).
"Pardon, Monsieur" or "Excusez-moi, Madame" are the phrases tought to be able to talk to somebody. In Spanish I'd say that you would replace them by "Buenos días" or "Buenas tardes". You would not ask for excuses, but you wouldn't talk without greeting.
[Edited at 2004-04-28 02:11] ▲ Collapse
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Lia Fail (X)
Spanien
Local time: 15:13
Spanisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Awfully sorry Leslie, but I'm really afraid that I cannot quite see your point....... | Apr 28, 2004 |
Actually I do, but even if I hadn't I would likely have phrased it along the above lines..........:-)
I'm Irish too, and I'm rather surprised you think it's a cultural thing, yet feel that maybe you're right:-)
Lesley Clarke wrote:
I am Irish, and we can never say enough pleases and thank yous, and as for making an Irish person feel guilty, there can't be anything easier in the world. So yes on the unusual occasion that I disagree, I preface it with sorry, in an humillity.
I'm sure any Irish person that has prefaced a disagreement with sorry, will now be wanting to write to everyone and say "sorry".
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spanien
Local time: 15:13
Spanisch > Englisch
+ ...
Hi Sarah,
I don't know why you object to non-natives in a forum - surely one communicates as and how one wishes, with all the -possibly limited - tools at one's disposal, with the point being that one manages to communicate one's point (otherwise we'd never get started:-)? I do it - communicate - all the time as a non-native living in Spain and Catalonia. What I don't do is offer myself as a professional writer in those languages for pay. There are people better equipped to do so m... See more Hi Sarah,
I don't know why you object to non-natives in a forum - surely one communicates as and how one wishes, with all the -possibly limited - tools at one's disposal, with the point being that one manages to communicate one's point (otherwise we'd never get started:-)? I do it - communicate - all the time as a non-native living in Spain and Catalonia. What I don't do is offer myself as a professional writer in those languages for pay. There are people better equipped to do so more effectively and more efficiently than I.
On the other hand, I take your point about non-natives simply not being equipped to detect subtleties of language, and particularly in certain kinds of writing. Yet for technical translations their knowledge of a field can overcome their minor liguistic difficulties. I remember once seeing a scaling of technical translators that went something as follows:
1. field expert + translation expert + native writer
2. field expert + translation expert + near-native writer
3. field-knowledgeable translation expert + native writer
4. translation expert + native writer, etc
On the subject of nuances in comments, two natives from the same culture could one feel offended at a comment, and the other not...it's a matter of attitude, personality, whatever. I think some people's comments in ProZ answers are abrasive to say the least, but I think the best thing is simply to ignore them.
What does irritate me - like you - is to see non-native proferring what are clearly badly phrased answers, and then these being selected (blind leading the blind?).
This will undoubtedly offend people, as many comments have in the past about 'non-natives', but I live - and try to earn a living - in a country where chronically bad English is the order of the day (menus, at least, give one a laugh, e.g. 'tart of the house' was offered to me recently as a dessert! But websites make one cringe.......where native writing skills really count) and where it seems that the vast majority think that knowledge of two languages makes a translator.
Sarah Downing wrote:
Some non-native speakers do give good answers, but what really makes my blood boil is when I see non-native speakers translating e.g. into English who really aren't qualified to do so (i.e. I read their forum postings - not referring to any posting in this forum, so please do not take this personally) and my toes curl because it's blatantly obvious that they've been written by a non-native! Non-native speakers are entitled to translate into a non-native language, but it's simply unprofessional to translate into a language when you're not qualified to do so and that is when a lot of native speakers feel right to intervene. Of course, there are also cases where a non-native may have given a good answer that needs a bit of polishing - language has so many nuances and if you haven't spoken a language since your infancy you're not going to know it as well as someone who has.
I hope I haven't offended anyone - this is based on my observations and I honestly have nothing against non-natives!!
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| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spanien
Local time: 15:13
Spanisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Other interpretations of 'sorry'? | Apr 28, 2004 |
I don't diagree with you Nancy, as varying interpretations are possible, depending on situation, context, tone of voice, relative power status, etc, but for me (from a post-colonial culture, Irish) something prefaced with "sorry" is a warning that one is going to hear something that one won't particularly like and the speaker is 'sorry' about that. Well, that's the way I personally use it, it's not quite like "awfully sorry, old chap, but you'll have to shift that bag" which leaves the "sorry" d... See more I don't diagree with you Nancy, as varying interpretations are possible, depending on situation, context, tone of voice, relative power status, etc, but for me (from a post-colonial culture, Irish) something prefaced with "sorry" is a warning that one is going to hear something that one won't particularly like and the speaker is 'sorry' about that. Well, that's the way I personally use it, it's not quite like "awfully sorry, old chap, but you'll have to shift that bag" which leaves the "sorry" devoid of meaning...
NancyLynn wrote:
Unfortunately, some other cultures perceive this as being insincere, hypocritical, even pompous and arrogant (perhaps the extent of the British Empire in past century or two has something to do with that as well  ). Fortunately, in the same vein, these Brits are capable of laughing at themselves as well, often before anyone else does.
Nancy  ▲ Collapse
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Mats Wiman
Schweden
Local time: 15:13
Mitglied (2000)
Deutsch > Schwedisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken | 'Sorry' in the given context IS condescending. | Apr 28, 2004 |
Dear all,
Culture and personality certainly plays into it but there are solid reasons for my point of view.
As Jack Doughty pointed out, 'Sorry' may and may not be condescending.
To me, 'Sorry, but ...' sounds like 'Sorry, (pat pat), but with your intellectual/linguistic/cultural background it is now necessary for me, the expert/native speaker, to lead you down the right road....
If you disagree with a colleague for which you have respect, you ... See more Dear all,
Culture and personality certainly plays into it but there are solid reasons for my point of view.
As Jack Doughty pointed out, 'Sorry' may and may not be condescending.
To me, 'Sorry, but ...' sounds like 'Sorry, (pat pat), but with your intellectual/linguistic/cultural background it is now necessary for me, the expert/native speaker, to lead you down the right road....
If you disagree with a colleague for which you have respect, you don't use this expression - you simply dispute on factual grounds and make a (in your view) superior suggestion.
Marijke Singer sums it up very well:
"I tend not to disagree with anybody even when I know the answer is not the right one or it is expressed strangely. I just provide another answer and let it go. I just assume that the person asking is intelligent enough to wade through the answers given and decide for him or herself what is the correct option."
Mats ▲ Collapse
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Posting deleted.
[Edited at 2004-04-28 17:19]
| | | | Irene N
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 08:13
Englisch > Russisch
+ ...
I wonder who cares for nativeness or non-nativeness of the helping hand while using an enormous pool of FREE glossaries or reference links shared with everybody else here on Proz?
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