| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4] > | Please, do not ever be condescending Initiator des Themas: Mats Wiman
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Claudia Iglesias 
Chile
Local time: 14:24
Mitglied (2002)
Spanisch > Französisch
+ ...
| Rule number 2: Stay on point | Apr 28, 2004 |
Irene, please edit your post. As it is now it's an attack, and, as Michele, I don't see what in Sarah's post allows you to accuse her.
And please, let's stay on point, Mats said that this was about the word "Sorry"
[Edited at 2004-04-28 19:23]
| | | | Irene N
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 13:24
Englisch > Russisch
+ ...
Claudia Iglesias wrote:
Irene, please edit your post. Mats said that this was about the word "Sorry"
I'm erazing the first one completely, mainly out of the respect for your personal request. I have always enjoyed your posts.
I will never understand how one can use free help and badmouth the source of it right on the spot, regardless of any mishaps or shortcomings. I hope the latter is not such a crimilal statement, please consider it a generic observation.
Unfortunately the accusation response is now completely out of context.
[Edited at 2004-04-28 12:58]
| | | | Andy Watkinson
Spanien
Local time: 20:24
Mitglied
Katalanisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Kudoz Question? | Apr 28, 2004 |
Besides seconding Kim's statement....
"I don't think we ought to be telling people how to comment on answers other than that they need to follow the rules of etiquette."
.....I'd like to point out that if this were a KudoZ question, the original proposition (?) would have received:
10 "disagrees". (most of them saying "sorry", of course )
1 (neutral) - Thanks Bob, for "softening t... See more Besides seconding Kim's statement....
"I don't think we ought to be telling people how to comment on answers other than that they need to follow the rules of etiquette."
.....I'd like to point out that if this were a KudoZ question, the original proposition (?) would have received:
10 "disagrees". (most of them saying "sorry", of course)
1 (neutral) - Thanks Bob, for "softening the blow".
"Agrees" - None, as far as I can make out.
Why?
I'd say:
a) "Native" (and don't get started) speakers are well aware that it's quite possible for YOU to bump into someone and the OTHER person says "sorry".
As Nancy says "apologising profusely for nothing".
While Charlie gives a perfect description of its use in this particular "arena".
b) Translators (ergo, writers) don't like being "micro-managed" down to how they should respond. They probably (and rightly) think they can handle a complete sentence without needing any help.
Saludos,
Andy. ▲ Collapse
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Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 21:24
Mitglied (2004)
Englisch > Russisch
+ ...
| Non-natives: translation vs. participation in kudoZ | Apr 28, 2004 |
On my opinion, these two are different. There are at least two kinds of kudoZ questions: when an asker needs a correct wording (pure translation) or when he/she seeks understanding to find the best wording themselves.
Because of many harsh disagrees due to `not-that-perfect' wording non-native translators hesitate to participate in their "reverse" pairs. At least in my Eng->Rus pair. Sometimes we desperately need a native English speaker who would explain the meaning of an English w... See more On my opinion, these two are different. There are at least two kinds of kudoZ questions: when an asker needs a correct wording (pure translation) or when he/she seeks understanding to find the best wording themselves.
Because of many harsh disagrees due to `not-that-perfect' wording non-native translators hesitate to participate in their "reverse" pairs. At least in my Eng->Rus pair. Sometimes we desperately need a native English speaker who would explain the meaning of an English word or expression, it's stylistical colouring, etc. But they do not look at the pair, since they knew that there might be always some arrogant Russian-speaking translator who just cannot pass by a typo without a disagree. No good neither for translators who works in Eng-Rus pair, nor for those who translate from Russian into English.
In other words, it depends who makes a mistake: I will encourage a non-native Russian with an agree and slight correction, but I may put a disagree to a native Russian for the same mistake if I think it is monstrous for a native speaker.
On my opinion, the best result in kudoZ is a joint efforts of both non-Natives and Natives, when the former explain the meaning and the latter seek for the best wording.
[Edited at 2004-04-28 14:27] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mats Wiman
Schweden
Local time: 20:24
Mitglied (2000)
Deutsch > Schwedisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken | KudoZ suggestions may be disputetd but NOT commented on | Apr 28, 2004 |
Thanks Kyrill,
You, like many, lift out the importance of not forgetting that answerers are HELPERS and should therefore be treated with gratitude and respect, however faulty their suggestion.
Colleagues are not judges - that's the asker - and they most certainly should not pass verdicts or make comments on answer or answerer.
The asker is not helped by that and the answerer can feel insulted and discouraged from making suggestions.
Consequently, the phrase ... See more Thanks Kyrill,
You, like many, lift out the importance of not forgetting that answerers are HELPERS and should therefore be treated with gratitude and respect, however faulty their suggestion.
Colleagues are not judges - that's the asker - and they most certainly should not pass verdicts or make comments on answer or answerer.
The asker is not helped by that and the answerer can feel insulted and discouraged from making suggestions.
Consequently, the phrase 'Sorry, but...', which is a comment/verdict, is not called for.
Mats ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexiko
Local time: 12:24
Deutsch > Englisch
| Peer grading | Apr 28, 2004 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
Dear Magda,
You said: "So, what to do if the answer neither sounds well nor is it correct, but still is offered, usually as a wild guess?"
You know the answer don't you: Note it and go on.
Marijke Singer sums it up very well:
"I tend not to disagree with anybody even when I know the answer is not the right one or it is expressed strangely. I just provide another answer and let it go. I just assume that the person asking is intelligent enough to wade through the answers given and decide for him or herself what is the correct option."
Colleagues are not judges - that's the asker - and they most certainly should not pass verdicts or make comments on answer or answerer.
The asker is not helped by that and the answerer can feel insulted and discouraged from making suggestions.
Hi Mats, are you proposing that we abandon the peer-grading system? Or rewrite the rules?
[Edited at 2004-04-28 15:19]
| | | | Mats Wiman
Schweden
Local time: 20:24
Mitglied (2000)
Deutsch > Schwedisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken | KudoZ is a SUGGESTION system | Apr 28, 2004 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
Hi Mats, are you proposing that we abandon the peer-grading system?
Of course not.
I am saying that ANSWERS or ANSWERERS are not to be commented on.
The whole idea with KudoZ is to SUGGEST and possibly DISPUTE but NOT to COMMENT.
Mats
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Nikki Graham
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 19:24
Spanisch > Englisch
| sorry, but... totally disagree Mats | Apr 28, 2004 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
answerers are HELPERS and should therefore be treated with gratitude and respect, however faulty their suggestion.
Colleagues are not judges - that's the asker - and they most certainly should not pass verdicts or make comments on answer or answerer.
The asker is not helped by that and the answerer can feel insulted and discouraged from making suggestions.
Consequently, the phrase 'Sorry, but...', which is a comment/verdict, is not called for.
Mats
Sorry, but (there it is again), I have to totally disagree with this. Answerers should be just helpers, but too often they are point chasers who write down the first rubbish that comes into their heads in their efforts to walk away with the points and climb up the leader board ladder. I am not grateful for such answers, and I certainly don't respect them. And as an asker, I am helped by people's opinions. Especially the opinions of people I do respect. Why can't someone point out that it doesn't sound good English/German/Swedish/Chinese or whatever?
Now, if you get rid of points altogether, these problems would probably disappear. The people still answering would be true helpers and the quality of answers would no doubt improve.
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 21:24
Mitglied (2004)
Englisch > Russisch
+ ...
| Just let's take care of each other feelings, that's all | Apr 28, 2004 |
What I meant is that we have to be sensitive.
If "a bad answer" is given by a newbie, take it easy: we all were new to ProZ and kudoZ (I'm sure that many of us still remember how it feels), and ProZ is a special community with its own rules. Let the person to be adjusted to the atmosphere and some "unwritten rules". No sense to discourage him or her with harsh disagrees.
If there is a good answer with a pack of agrees and "a stupid answer" without agrees, there is proba... See more What I meant is that we have to be sensitive.
If "a bad answer" is given by a newbie, take it easy: we all were new to ProZ and kudoZ (I'm sure that many of us still remember how it feels), and ProZ is a special community with its own rules. Let the person to be adjusted to the atmosphere and some "unwritten rules". No sense to discourage him or her with harsh disagrees.
If there is a good answer with a pack of agrees and "a stupid answer" without agrees, there is probably no need to heat the atmosphere by adding yet another disagree. In this case the difference is obvious not only for us ("super-great-translators") but also for the asker.
But if there is a tough question and we have our strict opinion on it, and the balance is equal, then "agree" and "disagree" is our vote, which is very important for the asker. And so on.
In most cases I treat my peer comments with the same responsibility as my kudoZ answers, that's all. I try to remember that other names I see in proZ are not "answering machines" but real people with their human feelings. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Mats, what point are you trying to make? | Apr 28, 2004 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
...disputed but NOT commented on...
Huh?
AFAIK you can only express your opinion without comment if you agree with a suggestion. Neutrals and disagrees require a comment.
Secondly, Mats, it might not be a bad idea if you qualify your statements more, and try to be less dogmatic. If you find something condescending - fine. Dein gutes Recht. That doesn't necessarily mean that it IS condescending. We're entitled to our opinion(s) too.
Is this discussion actually getting anywhere? It seems to be doing nothing other than opening a can of worms.
[Edited at 2004-04-28 15:47]
| | | | Mats Wiman
Schweden
Local time: 20:24
Mitglied (2000)
Deutsch > Schwedisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken | KudoZ is a suggestion system | Apr 28, 2004 |
Nikki Graham wrote:
Sorry, but (there it is again), I have to totally disagree with this. Answerers should be just helpers, but too often they are point chasers who write down the first rubbish that comes into their heads in their efforts to walk away with the points and climb up the leader board ladder. I am not grateful for such answers, and I certainly don't respect them.
Whom are you talking about here?
Surely not the the great majority of KudoZ participants?
And as an asker, I am helped by people's opinions. Especially the opinions of people I do respect. Why can't someone point out that it doesn't sound good English/German/Swedish/Chinese or whatever?
Who said so?
I did not. I have implored us all not to be condescending.
I also say that different suggestions constitute the great value of the KudoZ system, not comments, especially not sweeping comments.
Now, if you get rid of points altogether, these problems would probably disappear. The people still answering would be true helpers and the quality of answers would no doubt improve.
Most of us dispute and have disputed these conclusions for almost five years now.
Mats
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Andy Watkinson
Spanien
Local time: 20:24
Mitglied
Katalanisch > Englisch
+ ...
[quote]Mats Wiman wrote:
Kim Metzger wrote:
Hi Mats, are you proposing that we abandon the peer-grading system?
Of course not.
I am saying that ANSWERS or ANSWERERS are not to be commented on.
The whole idea with KudoZ is to SUGGEST and possibly DISPUTE but NOT to COMMENT."
OK. It would seem, then, that the "crux of the matter" lies in your definition of "comment" and "suggest/dispute".
e.g. "Disputing" is OK., but "commenting" isn't. (which raises the question of what the "neutral" option is for, if not to place a comment(?).
Please tell me what you assume I, or anyone else, is supposed to do when confronted with an answer such as:
"For Sale: A 4-bedrooms house".
Simply disagree and say "This is wrong"?
Or disagree and say: "Sorry, "bedroom" is used here as an adjective and is thus invariable".
(This kind of mistake, by the way, is typical of what you would presumably call "Non-English natives")
I am increasingly bemused.
Saludos,
Andy.
| | | | Mats Wiman
Schweden
Local time: 20:24
Mitglied (2000)
Deutsch > Schwedisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken
Cilian O'Tuama wrote:
...it might not be a bad idea if you qualify your statements more, and try to be less dogmatic.
Qualification:
First: I have been bringing up the problem of someone passing CONDESCENDING comments.
I of course see no problem if someone comments with "Very good!", "Excellent!" or "Definitely better than mine!" or if the comment/disputing is in the form of disputing something factual like "In this context 'administer' is more appropriate. See below."
"Sorry, but this is not good" does not CONTRIBUTE, does it?
Second: I regret if you find me being dogmatic, I simply try to be emphatic and I have the same problem as many of us have: We can't find the time to write a paper about it and so, we often have to write several postings in order to clarify what we feel has been misunderstood.
We're entitled to our opinion(s) too. Of course, but then, reversely, stating an opinion emphatically, must not be called dogmatic.
Is this discussion actually getting anywhere? This is entirely up to everybody. If you don't think this discussion gets you anywhere, you are free not to prolong it.
Best regards
Mats
| | | | Mats Wiman
Schweden
Local time: 20:24
Mitglied (2000)
Deutsch > Schwedisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER In stillem Gedenken | Thanks Andy, | Apr 28, 2004 |
andycw wrote:
It would seem, then, that the "crux of the matter" lies in your definition of "comment" and "suggest/dispute".
e.g. "Disputing" is OK., but "commenting" isn't. (which raises the question of what the "neutral" option is for, if not to place a comment(?).
Please see my answer to Cilian above.
You certainly put your finger on a soft spot in my argumentation: "Please define dispute and comment."
You are helping me by giving me this question:
"Please tell me what you assume I, or anyone else, is supposed to do when confronted with an answer such as:
"For Sale: A 4-bedrooms house".
Simply disagree and say "This is wrong"?
Perfect example of what you should IMHO NOT say.
You SOULD say: " 'bedroom' is used here as an adjective and is thus invariable - see below or Cilian's suggestion".
Summary:
Comments are OK if they pertain to the answer and not the answerer and are devoid of negatve value judgements ('wrong', 'bad', 'stupid' etc)
Clearcut contestations are also welcome if substantiated: "That expression is used by cowboys, not by ladies - see below (i.e. my suggestion)"
I hope I have made myself slightly clearer.
Best regards
Mats
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