| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Off topic: Have you given up flying? Initiator des Themas: Tom in London
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Tom in London
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 03:04
Mitglied (2008)
Italienisch > Englisch
THEMENSTARTER
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
now, please stop...
.... of how readily some will seize the opportunity to divert a conversation away from subjects that make them feel uncomfortable.
Rhodes is on fire and flights from the UK to Rhodes have halted, which would seem the kind of thing a thread like this might talk about, but no, it's shifted to which is the best airline and how many places share particular placenames.
The really absurd thing is that the fires are being caused by extreme temperatures
Which are being caused by global overheating
Which is being caused by CO2 emissions
A large proportion of which are being caused by flights
Which in the case of Rhodes are being caused by mainly British people taking flights
And who are now desperate to take more flights to get away from the disaster they are causing.
As Socrates said (I think) the beginning of wisdom is being able to connect one thing with another.
Evidently those holidaymakers have not got there - yet.
[Edited at 2023-07-23 14:11 GMT]
| | | | RobinB 
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 21:04
Deutsch > Englisch
In fact we have just returned from 12 days in Europe: client visits in Munich, a three-day financial translation conference in Luxembourg, and even a two-day vacation in Hallstatt, Austria, one of the most magical places on Earth.
Living in the USA, it's difficult to avoid air travel entirely. There are effectively no long-distance trains, and there are unlikely to be any in the near future, i.e. during our lifetimes. So three to four internal round trips a year are normal.
... See more In fact we have just returned from 12 days in Europe: client visits in Munich, a three-day financial translation conference in Luxembourg, and even a two-day vacation in Hallstatt, Austria, one of the most magical places on Earth.
Living in the USA, it's difficult to avoid air travel entirely. There are effectively no long-distance trains, and there are unlikely to be any in the near future, i.e. during our lifetimes. So three to four internal round trips a year are normal.
As far as a/c is concerned, where we live (Texas Gulf Coast) it's basically a life-saver. Our a/c system went down a few weeks ago, and in the 10 or so hours until the system was repaired, the temperature inside climbed from 71°F (21.6°C) to 89°F (31.6°F). Any longer, and it would have been unbearable. Several friends and colleagues I spoke to in Europe are planning to install a/c in their homes (or have already done so), but won't say so publicly because they're afraid of the backlash from some quarters. Properly maintained, a modern a/c system (central or window/wall-mounted) won't emit any harmful gases and, coupled with renewable energy sources, it shouldn't add to fossil fuel consumption.
We installed solar panels six months ago, with 50 panels producing 20 kW (the maximum we are allowed by the local power utility). It's probably the only whole-house solar system for 20 or 30 miles, and we're hoping the more neighbors will follow our example (not easy in a culture that's dominated by oil and gas, but in the current heatwave, renewables are producing some 35% of power requirements in here in Texas).
One thing I can say: Following my client visits in Munich, it's clear that forcing people to work in offices without air conditioning when the outside temperature is well above 30°C is a form of torture. ▲ Collapse
| | | | expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 03:04
Mitglied (2015)
Englisch > Portugiesisch
+ ...
| My apologies | Jul 23, 2023 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
now, please stop...
.... of how readily some will seize the opportunity to divert a conversation away from subjects that make them feel uncomfortable.
Rhodes is on fire and flights from the UK to Rhodes have halted, which would seem the kind of thing a thread like this might talk about, but no, it's shifted to which is the best airline and how many places share particular placenames.
I speak for myself.
You two don't know me and I don't know you.
I don't often divert from topics and when I do it I apologize to the OP.
I found Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL post curious and remembered that I had seen a program on TV about cities with the same name in different countries (specifically the US).
If I have hurt anyone's delicate sensibilities and gone off topic, my apologies.
And by the way, you don't tell me to shut up or stop, ok?
Please continue with the topic.
| | | | Tom in London
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 03:04
Mitglied (2008)
Italienisch > Englisch
THEMENSTARTER
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TonyTK
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
| Forest fires | Jul 23, 2023 |
Tom in London wrote:
The really absurd thing is that the fires are being caused by extreme temperatures
[Edited at 2023-07-23 14:11 GMT]
While I agree with your general views on this topic, I think you'll find that forest fires are caused by people or lightning - in combination with dry conditions (not heat but lack of rainfall), high winds and poor forest management.
| | | | RobinB
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 21:04
Deutsch > Englisch
Tom in London wrote:
RobinB wrote:
s far as a/c is concerned, where we live (Texas Gulf Coast) it's basically a life-saver. ...
That seems like a very intriguing post-rationalisation of why it is not harmful (!!!) to the environment to use a/c. Including if you use dehumidification.
We've been exüeriencing daytime humidity of 90% or more, and I've never read any suggestion that a/c has any effect on that. Sounds like "alternative news" to me. Nowadays, you can always find some source online to support any argument.
| | | | Kay Denney
Frankreich
Local time: 04:04
Französisch > Englisch
TonyTK wrote:
Tom in London wrote:
The really absurd thing is that the fires are being caused by extreme temperatures
[Edited at 2023-07-23 14:11 GMT]
While I agree with your general views on this topic, I think you'll find that forest fires are caused by people or lightning - in combination with dry conditions (not heat but lack of rainfall), high winds and poor forest management.
Global overheating is caused by people, too.
Yes the fire may originate with a carelessly tossed match or cigarette butt.
The fires are worse than before because there is also a drought, which is worse because of climate change. Montevideo has nearly run out of drinking water and water wars have already started here in France too (google Sainte-Soline for more info on this).
High winds are also getting higher because of climate change.
What really bugs me is that I was talking about all of this back in the Seventies when I first became a member of Greenpeace, and people would make fun of me. Greenpeace didn't get it all right, though, they actually wildly underestimated the problem, and especially underestimated the extent of human stupidity. They had predicted all this for 2050, so we're 27 years ahead!
If with the petrol crisis in 1972, the governments of the time had sat up and listened to Greenpeace, and invested then and there in renewable energy instead of just making everyone pay through the nose for petrol, we wouldn't have as much of a problem nowadays.
I really would have preferred to be wrong.
| | | | | CO2 from flying and air conditioners | Jul 24, 2023 |
I don't really believe that if we stop flying, we could reduce the amount of CO2. Say, if all of the people on this thread stopped flying, for example, the emission of CO2 will not change, since airline companies will anyway operate flights even if the aircraft is full or empty. They have a schedule to keep, and they'll have to send in the aircraft so that the return flight could be made. This applies regardless to domestic or international flights (buses, trains and boats, too).
A... See more I don't really believe that if we stop flying, we could reduce the amount of CO2. Say, if all of the people on this thread stopped flying, for example, the emission of CO2 will not change, since airline companies will anyway operate flights even if the aircraft is full or empty. They have a schedule to keep, and they'll have to send in the aircraft so that the return flight could be made. This applies regardless to domestic or international flights (buses, trains and boats, too).
As to air conditioners, I don't know about other countries, but in my country, we have at least a dozen of senior citizens dying from dehydration and hyperthermia every summer. Some don't have air conditioners in their house, but some of them do, but the reason for these deaths is that when one gets old, your body becomes hard to detect how hot the temperature around you and your body cannot adjust yourself to the heat you're experiencing. Due to these terrible accidents, the government encourages people to use air conditioners to save lives. Japan is a very humid country. If it's 30 degrees Celsius outside, the heat you feel is not the same if you were in California with the same temperature.
Like Tom wrote earlier, we use to have a similar system about housing and architecture, which the answer was wooden houses which would keep the house cooler in the summer (but also cooler in the winter).
I remember when a noodle shop owner once told me about the heat and cold. I can bear the coldness in the winter, I just have to put on extra clothes, but I cannot bear the heat in the summer because even if I take all of my clothes off and go bare naked, there's nothing more left that I can take off. ▲ Collapse
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Rachel Waddington
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 03:04
Niederländisch > Englisch
+ ...
Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
I don't really believe that if we stop flying, we could reduce the amount of CO2. Say, if all of the people on this thread stopped flying, for example, the emission of CO2 will not change, since airline companies will anyway operate flights even if the aircraft is full or empty. They have a schedule to keep, and they'll have to send in the aircraft so that the return flight could be made. This applies regardless to domestic or international flights (buses, trains and boats, too).
They might do that for a while but if demand for flights drop the airlines will reduce the number of flights they put on. At the moment, demand for flying is growing rapidly and airports are pushing to expand capacity.
| | | | Tom in London
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 03:04
Mitglied (2008)
Italienisch > Englisch
THEMENSTARTER | part of the solution | Jul 24, 2023 |
Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
.....I cannot bear the heat in the summer because even if I take all of my clothes off and go bare naked, there's nothing more left that I can take off.
Keeping cool begins with what you wear, but taking off all your clothes may not be the best way to keep cool. Over centuries of very hot weather many countries have evolved forms of clothing that create a cool breeze between the garment and your skin.
"Traditional Yoruba danshiki consisted of hand sewn together woven strips of cloth. Today they are made using more versatile textiles for larger distribution and to keep cool in the African heat"
https://africandashiki411.weebly.com/dashiki-ii.html
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Kay Denney wrote:
If with the petrol crisis in 1972,
I remember covering renewables back in junior school just after this, including devices you don't hear about these days, e.g. to capture energy from ocean waves (they're really inefficient, IIRC).
And this wasn't from some tree-hugging activist, it was from an unpleasant believer in corporal punishment, using a metal ruler across the knuckles.
Over the years, my general view has changed little (there is a cartoon in a similar vein but with wider scope); I always figured it could surely not be a bad thing to have less pollution and less destruction of the environment/wildlife habitat. Even if it turned out there was no such thing as anthropogenic climate effects, not belching smoke into the sky and not dumping garbage into the sea just seem to me to be quite good ideas.
And indeed, somehow, we just about managed to remedy acid rain and halt the damage to the ozone layer.
I rather fear those achievements possibly wouldn't happen now - you can see why just reading this thread.
"But I like....."
"I don't believe...."
| | | | Kay Denney
Frankreich
Local time: 04:04
Französisch > Englisch
Yasutomo Kanazawa wrote:
I don't really believe that if we stop flying, we could reduce the amount of CO2. Say, if all of the people on this thread stopped flying, for example, the emission of CO2 will not change, since airline companies will anyway operate flights even if the aircraft is full or empty. They have a schedule to keep, and they'll have to send in the aircraft so that the return flight could be made. This applies regardless to domestic or international flights (buses, trains and boats, too).
As to air conditioners, I don't know about other countries, but in my country, we have at least a dozen of senior citizens dying from dehydration and hyperthermia every summer. Some don't have air conditioners in their house, but some of them do, but the reason for these deaths is that when one gets old, your body becomes hard to detect how hot the temperature around you and your body cannot adjust yourself to the heat you're experiencing. Due to these terrible accidents, the government encourages people to use air conditioners to save lives. Japan is a very humid country. If it's 30 degrees Celsius outside, the heat you feel is not the same if you were in California with the same temperature.
Like Tom wrote earlier, we use to have a similar system about housing and architecture, which the answer was wooden houses which would keep the house cooler in the summer (but also cooler in the winter).
I remember when a noodle shop owner once told me about the heat and cold. I can bear the coldness in the winter, I just have to put on extra clothes, but I cannot bear the heat in the summer because even if I take all of my clothes off and go bare naked, there's nothing more left that I can take off.
Right so if you can't stand the heat, I suggest you take a critical look at your "drop in the ocean" reasoning. If all the people on this thread and all the billionaires and all people with no reason to fly apart from medical emergencies were to stop flying (after all with Zoom, there is barely any need for business travel any more), CO2 emissions would fall drastically. Then we ban meat and fish and dairy and have everyone eating vegan, keeping meat production only for our meat-eating pets, and CO2 emissions will drop drastically again. (Before you tell me this is not possible, the FAO produced a document a while back showing that it was perfectly possible to convert completely to organic vegan farming and feed the global population better than today.) Then we ban private cars except for handicapped people and bingo, the problem will largely be resolved. We could maybe put a stop to mindless scrolling on phones too, because that has a huge impact.
It will take everyone in the Western World making a considerable effort to see an effect.
Cue everyone saying "but I need my car to go to work", and I will counter with "you need to either live near your workplace or find a place to live near your work."
But don't worry, it's not gonna happen, nobody would ever vote for me to be president of anything, so you had better learn to adjust to the heat.
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Tom in London
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 03:04
Mitglied (2008)
Italienisch > Englisch
THEMENSTARTER
By now there must be millions of people, all over the world, who give themselves a free pass by saying to themselves "with the few flights I take I can't make any meaningful contribution to saving the planet from climate change. So I'm just going to keep on doing what I've been doing".
If each one of those millions of people would be less selfish, we'd be getting somewhere. There would be millions of flights not taken.
[Edited at 2023-07-24 11:41 GMT]
| | | | | More unnecessary shaming | Jul 24, 2023 |
Kay Denney wrote:
If all the people on this thread and all the billionaires and all people with no reason to fly apart from medical emergencies were to stop flying (after all with Zoom, there is barely any need for business travel any more), CO2 emissions would fall drastically. Then we ban meat and fish and dairy and have everyone eating vegan, keeping meat production only for our meat-eating pets, and CO2 emissions will drop drastically again. (Before you tell me this is not possible, the FAO produced a document a while back showing that it was perfectly possible to convert completely to organic vegan farming and feed the global population better than today.) Then we ban private cars except for handicapped people and bingo, the problem will largely be resolved. We could maybe put a stop to mindless scrolling on phones too, because that has a huge impact.
It will take everyone in the Western World making a considerable effort to see an effect.
Cue everyone saying "but I need my car to go to work", and I will counter with "you need to either live near your workplace or find a place to live near your work."
But don't worry, it's not gonna happen, nobody would ever vote for me to be president of anything, so you had better learn to adjust to the heat.
It's not that simple, Kay. You and everyone else generate loads of avoidable carbon from things other than flying, driving and meat.
As we all know, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You can't shame people for flying (and there is a ganging-up going on here before anyone denies it) unless you have your own footprint in order.
Flying less is a more effective goal than no flying. Throwing orange paint alienates people. Greenpeace and the rest need to think about who they are trying to get on board.
It also seems to me to that most people who have "given up flying" are people who have already seen the world. Is that fair?
| | | | Philip Lees
Griechenland
Local time: 05:04
Griechisch > Englisch
| Glass houses | Jul 27, 2023 |
Ice Scream wrote:
... people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
We all live in glass houses now. What I find extraordinary is that, given the events of the last few weeks, there should even be a debate about whether there is a climate crisis and what we need to do about it. How can anybody even question it?
And yet there are still many people who do. In the US, disbelief in the threat of climate change is almost a religion. And in the UK, as last week's by-elections confirm, for the residents of Uxbridge at least, all the "green shit" is a vote loser and not a vote winner.
I think we're all fixed, frankly, no matter how many flights we eschew, or how little meat we eat. In the current right-veering political climate any attempt to make climate an election issue is immediately swept under the rug labelled "woke".
I don't have any kids and I always thought I'd be dead before things got really shitty - though it's now looking as if the latter may not be true after all. But it's the subsequent generations who will pay the price for my generation's negligence, and I think it may already be too late to do anything about that.
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