| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3 4] > | How things are going in you language pair(s)? Initiator des Themas: sarandor
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Kevin Lossner 
Portugal
Local time: 07:18
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
| Saying "no" some more | Feb 21, 2009 |
Dinny wrote:
Kevin, I just loved your explanation on "how to say no"!  I myself often fear that I am a bit too direct, in particular with the Italians you are supposed to wind a rejection up in kind phrases, but why on earth would I say that I am sorry not to have the time to do a translation when the actual reason for my refusal is that they don't respect payment deadlines?
Think of directness as this "global English" (or global Italian or whatever) that everyone talks about so much. When we are communicating across borders and cultures, sometimes it's useful and necessary to cut the crap and just say what we mean in very direct (but polite) terms. There is a German client of mine which I seldom work for now which insists on six week payment terms. I prefer 30 days or less, and I am very clear about it when I turn down an attractive project if they do not agree to my terms. If they want more capacity from me (and I would enjoy doing more texts for their clients, many of whom are in my favorite areas), they know what to do. If they show up with a really huge project in a rush, which will block my capacity and possibly screw up my cash flow, I make it clear that a big chunk must be paid up front, or at some point the lights may go out while I'm tapping away at the keyboard on their job. Alles klar, no hard feelings, everyone understands the terms of business. Where I see real problems arise is where the parties fail to make their intentions clear, or inappropriate personal criticisms come into play, which - thank God - almost never happens. If I tell a PM that I consider a project unethical and can't take it, I do not say that the PM herself is unethical and I make that very clear. Unless she is, of course. This is probably one reason why the Dutch and the Danes are among my favorite peoples in Europe: I find their directness very refreshing.
I think this transparency is also an important part of establishing trust over time. I'm sure that some of my partners are not comfortable with this directness, and I try to offer them the "space" in which they feel safe to say so, but what is really matters to me in the end is that they know they can trust what I say quite literally.
| | | | | Estimated and actual, per the website, current ATA membership | Feb 21, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
Further, last year I checked the ATA website. There were more than 10K members (active and associate, i.e., non-certified) listed, and nearly 1,000 or more certified as EN>ES translators. I have just checked again the site. There are about 5K members total, and only 452 certified in the pair EN>ES. That’s a much smaller number that all the translators in that pair listed in ProZ.
Hm... I wonder how you checked the total number of members? All pages of ATA report that we are over 10K members. Indeed there are only some 450 certified members in EN>ES. Unfortunately I cannot tell how many there were in the past. Maybe the number of certified people shrinks as a consequence of the requirement of continuous education and participation in events?
Maybe we should write to the person in charge of certification administration there and ask whether the number of certified people is really shrinking.
Hi Tomás,
You are right, 452 ATA-Certified EN:ES translators is a hard number while the total membership number I gave was just my estimate. Here is how I did it.
To estimate ATA's current membersiph and compare it with the known 10K members in the past, I checked the number of all members translating from any language into English (about 5,500) and of all members translating from English into any language (a similar number). Total: 11,000. I assumed that all members translate in at least one pair the includes English as a source or target language and estimated the possible overlap between the lists, by taking a few pages of members from the webpage in both directions, cutting and pasting them on a two-column table, and visually determining the overlap: Between 70 to 90% in the pages I inspected.
Whatever good or bad my estimate was, I do have now the exact number of all current ATA members: 6,784.
Go to the ATA website, Tomás, and there, search for translators. Go to the Advanced Search page. On that page you can search for all members translating from any language to any language. You can’t do that on the previous page. As usual, at the top of the list of hits, you'll find the number of hits, in this case, 6784.
I still believe that list is incomplete, and likely more translators are seding now or soon will be sending their renewal order, particularly from overseas. But if I am wrong, this is the first hard data about how at least the translators‘ perception is being affected by the crisis: a 33% reduction in ATA’s membership from the previous year.
Saludos,
Luis.
| | | | | Being listed on the ATA job website is optional, I think | Feb 21, 2009 |
Whatever good or bad my estimate was, I do have now the exact number of all current ATA members: 6,784.
Go to the ATA website, Tomás, and there, search for translators. Go to the Advanced Search page. On that page you can search for all members translating from any language to any language. You can’t do that on the previous page. As usual, at the top of the list of hits, you'll find the number of hits, in this case, 6784.
I still believe that list is incomplete,
I think it is definitely incomplete, because as far as I know, being listed in that on-line directory is optional. So it is not impossible that there are a whole bunch of people that simply pay their dues but not listed in that database.
Just my 2 cents...
Katalin
| | | | Ivan Patti
Italien
Local time: 08:18
Englisch > Italienisch
+ ...
| Very busy with medical & pharmaceutical translations | Feb 21, 2009 |
Just like the other 2 colleagues who posted a reply to this thread and are working in my very same specialty fields, I've been very busy in the last months and my activity is doing OK. I was even able to find new clients who are sending jobs, even large ones, on a regular basis. It may just be luck, or the fact that in my language pairs the medical and pharmaceutical fields the number of professionals is inferior compared to others like finance, law or IT, or my memberships to ANITI, SFT and ATA... See more Just like the other 2 colleagues who posted a reply to this thread and are working in my very same specialty fields, I've been very busy in the last months and my activity is doing OK. I was even able to find new clients who are sending jobs, even large ones, on a regular basis. It may just be luck, or the fact that in my language pairs the medical and pharmaceutical fields the number of professionals is inferior compared to others like finance, law or IT, or my memberships to ANITI, SFT and ATA (which proved to be a good investment since my SFT and ATA member status helped me find new clients and new clients to find me), or my efforts to provide my customers with an high quality work, or whatever...
I also bought the test piece to prepare to the ATA certification some months ago. Although the test piece got a rather high mark (just 2 light mistakes) it's a bit difficult for me to get ATA certified since this would mean quite a lot of money (flight tickets to the US, hotel stay, passport to be redone, etc.) to be spent without being sure to actually pass the REAL certification.
@Katalin: you're right! Inclusion in the ATA job bank is not automatic for members: you have to log in the ATA website and complete the specific page with all your data to be listed. ▲ Collapse
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| Optional listing | Feb 21, 2009 |
Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:
[
I think it is definitely incomplete, because as far as I know, being listed in that on-line directory is optional. So it is not impossible that there are a whole bunch of people that simply pay their dues but not listed in that database.
Just my 2 cents...
Katalin
Yes, Katalin, I have just checked it in a recent letter from ATA where we were invited to join the OPTIONAL online service. I had not paid attention to it. I also checked in the internal directory for several different categories of members and the numbers are higher, some much higher, than those given online for each category. I can't disclose the actual numbers because that directory is open only to members.
That makes much more sense. A 33% reduction would have been a ridiculous estampede.
Luis
| | | | Kim Metzger
Mexiko
Local time: 01:18
Deutsch > Englisch
| You can take the test in Italy | Feb 21, 2009 |
Ivan Patti wrote:
it's a bit difficult for me to get ATA certified since this would mean quite a lot of money (flight tickets to the US, hotel stay, passport to be redone, etc.) to be spent without being sure to actually pass the REAL certification.
If you can find someone in Italy who's ATA-certified, he or she can serve as a proctor and administer an exam in Italy. I know, because I set up an ATA exam for translators in Mexico. When I did this several years ago, the rule was that you had to have at least five people sign up for the exam. If you'd like more details, I'd be happy to assist you.
Kim
| | | | Steven Capsuto
Vereinigte Staaten
Local time: 02:18
Mitglied (2004)
Spanisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Different pairs | Feb 21, 2009 |
It varies by language pair.
Portuguese-English and English-Spanish have been very slow for the past couple of months.
However, my French-English, Spanish-English and Catalan-English clients have been keeping me unusually busy, so it balances out.
| | | | Ivan Patti
Italien
Local time: 08:18
Englisch > Italienisch
+ ...
[/quote]
If you can find someone in Italy who's ATA-certified, he or she can serve as a proctor and administer an exam in Italy. I know, because I set up an ATA exam for translators in Mexico. When I did this several years ago, the rule was that you had to have at least five people sign up for the exam. If you'd like more details, I'd be happy to assist you.
Kim [/quote]
This is just great Kim! Thank you for telling me: I really DIDN'T know that. I knew tha... See more [/quote]
If you can find someone in Italy who's ATA-certified, he or she can serve as a proctor and administer an exam in Italy. I know, because I set up an ATA exam for translators in Mexico. When I did this several years ago, the rule was that you had to have at least five people sign up for the exam. If you'd like more details, I'd be happy to assist you.
Kim [/quote]
This is just great Kim! Thank you for telling me: I really DIDN'T know that. I knew that some years ago ATA members were allowed to translate the certification exam at their own homes and then send it back via email (I'm talking about the late 90's, when I was still a university student), then someone in the ATA board began to question the reliability of such a way to certificate people (the old "how can we be sure that the applicant translated the text him/herself" and so on). You can provide me with more details by sending an email message through my proz profile, I'd really appreciate that ▲ Collapse
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| Crucial word missing | Feb 22, 2009 |
Just goes to show the value of other people's eyes. Even when reading your quote from my post, I still saw the word that isn't there..... "sometimes".
Kevin Lossner wrote:
Charlie Bavington wrote:
... you slip down the call priority list (just because you often say no, not for any other reason), you will quite naturally be contacted even less often.
Lastly, let us not forget that the advice given on here (because it works) for dropping clients for whatever reason is too simply say "no" often enough for them to realise even asking you is a waste of their time.
There is and should be a difference between saying "no" to a client because you are busy and saying "no" because you find them difficult to work with, their projects managed badly, etc. When I say "no", it is perfectly clear what I mean. As may be obvious to anyone who has read my posts over a significant period of time, I don't shy way from direct language.
Because I meant to say "....the advice sometimes given....".
Obviously the direct and truthful approach works for some and in an ideal world would perhaps be used by us all. I'm not sure whether you would have replied differently, but the context would have slightly different - after all, we know how much I hate generalisations and 'universal truths' which often are not
Anyway, point is, that because sometimes the reasons for declining work are subjective, irrational even (personality clashes, disliking a PM's style), I (and others, I am sure) tend to avoid giving that as the reason even (especially?) when it IS, in fact, the reason. I have no wish to upset anyone, nor to engage in a debate about the right and wrong approach. If I am 'incompatible' with a job/client for other than linguistic reasons, I prefer to obfuscate!
The truth is that I am less 'incompatible' with clients/jobs the more things are in my favour. The 'incompatibility' refers to the usual circumstances (i.e. rates, deadlines, conditions in general). Given twice as long a deadline at twice my normal rate lessens the bad taste in my mouth. So that is what I usually do to deter people. I only say a flat "no" for subjects I really can't handle. For anything else, I suggest a different deadline. If it's a decent client, I genuinely give the job my best alternative date. If there is an incompatibility issue, I may make the deadline faintly ridiculous and probably add a higher rate for good measure, in the expectation the client will actually be the one saying "no", not me. If they say yes, well, I can put up with a rude PM for the right price...
I don't think alone in dealing with the situation in this way. Perhaps it would have been more accurate not to refer to "saying no", but instead to refer to "making it hard - to a lesser or geater degree - for the client to accept".
The trouble then is, as outlined earlier, that you end up treating the "sorry can't do it this time but do ask again" cases in a way that may appear little different to the outside observer (an agency, say) from the "please go away" cases. I fully understand this is a rod I make for my own back, but equally I am not the sort of person who wants to get involved in discussions about project management styles, why I'm really not cool with 90 day payment terms, how I feel about extra stuff being added at the last minute, replies to questions being sent 30 minutes before the deadline or whatever it may be. If other people are ready, willing and able to embark on that kind of client education, then great, and more power to their elbow.
Meanwhile, there are plenty of reasonable clients out there that I am compatible with.
I could add this is also how I feel about proofing/revision. I dislike it, while recognising it as a necessary evil for the translation process as a whole. So I quote high prices on it. Usually it deters clients from asking. If they agree, well, a bitter pill is made somewhat sweeter It's all the same idea.
And if you think I sound like the sort of bloke who ducks and dodges through life doing his utmost to avoid confrontation and unpleasantness of any kind, you'd be dead right
| | | | | January was the slowest month in a long time. Now it's going well again. | Feb 22, 2009 |
Most answers you will get to this question will probably be from people who have a lot of work. Those who don't, will probably try not to expose themselves.
I must say January has been the slowest month in a long long time. Now all of a sudden I'm being offered humongous jobs from old and new customers. So, hang in there, it will peak up again.
| | | | Edwal Rospigliosi
Spanien
Local time: 08:18
Mitglied (2004)
Englisch > Spanisch
+ ...
| EN/SP is in good health | Feb 22, 2009 |
January was a bit slow, so I used the free time to learn more about DTP. But since mid-February, my workload had a sharp increase and I'm back to my usual 9am-to-9pm schedule. Looks like in crisis times everybody wants to sell stuff, so I'm rather busy in my language pair, dealing mostly with electronics / defense / aviation.
I'm currently translating bid proposals for several defense companies. If they are awarded the contracts, I'll probably translate all the manuals/handbooks/te... See more January was a bit slow, so I used the free time to learn more about DTP. But since mid-February, my workload had a sharp increase and I'm back to my usual 9am-to-9pm schedule. Looks like in crisis times everybody wants to sell stuff, so I'm rather busy in my language pair, dealing mostly with electronics / defense / aviation.
I'm currently translating bid proposals for several defense companies. If they are awarded the contracts, I'll probably translate all the manuals/handbooks/terms, so I'm praying for them to be successful.
Besides, I find kinda hard not to root for my customers, after all if they make business, I make business.
[Editado a las 2009-02-22 13:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kevin Lossner
Portugal
Local time: 07:18
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
| What's wrong with the Spanish translators posting here? | Feb 22, 2009 |
Your language pairs are supposed to be the Armageddon of translation. I was planning to eat my dog in solidarity with you guys, and now you come along and tell me that you're actually not starving? What do you expect this will do to your image? Geez. I guess I'll have to stick to fish and chicken for now. I hope you are all at least showing some humility and solidarity with your clients by offering to lower your rates. It's the least you can do.
Some of what I read here also reminds... See more Your language pairs are supposed to be the Armageddon of translation. I was planning to eat my dog in solidarity with you guys, and now you come along and tell me that you're actually not starving? What do you expect this will do to your image? Geez. I guess I'll have to stick to fish and chicken for now. I hope you are all at least showing some humility and solidarity with your clients by offering to lower your rates. It's the least you can do.
Some of what I read here also reminds me of the difficulties which ensue when some brilliant analyst wants to plot a curve with one or two points. If you want to do some sort of meaningful trend analysis, try borrowing a few techniques from the world of quality control and do moving averages with different intervals or something similar. This will smooth out the noise of day-to-day or week-to-week variations and give you a better idea of what may really be going on in your market. Given the general public mood and the psychological effects of relentless bad news, I wouldn't rely too much on gut feelings not backed by carefully analyzed data. Of course, that statement may not be much comfort to someone lacking the cash cushions recommended for a freelancer (me, for instance), but it's still better than irrationality.
****
Edited to fix my usual careless one-fingered typing
[Edited at 2009-02-22 14:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Arnaud HERVE
Frankreich
Local time: 08:18
Englisch > Französisch
+ ...
Kevin Lossner wrote:
I was planning to eat my dog in solidarity with you guys
Maybe you should refrain from such language. I think it doesn't help a rational and quiet conversation.
Also, making derogatory statements about the whole of a national group seems to me below the cultural level of an international, literate forum.
Kevin Lossner wrote:
Some of what I read here also reminds me of the difficulties which ensue when some brilliant analyst wants to plot a curve with one or two points. If you want to do some sort of meaningful trend analysis, try borrowing a few techniques from the world of quality control and do moving averages with different intervals or something similar. This will smooth out the noise of day-to-day or week-to-week variations and give you a better idea of what may really be going on in your market.
We are all happy that you told us how to do our maths to distinguish our own general trends at home. You are really a lighthouse for us poor navigators in the fog.
Kevin Lossner wrote:
Given the general public mood and the psychological effects of relentless bad news, I wouldn't rely too much on gut feelings not backed by carefully analyzed data.
I wouldn't either. Including for gut feelings of boisterous optimism, or gut urge to repeatedly declare an absence of solidarity, or gut urge to deny what is happening in a superstitious way: Let us not talk about it so it won't happen to us.
When I hear for instance that the Japanese economy is collapsing, I believe the word "collapse" is a bit exaggerated, but I also believe there will be a decrease of translations from JP.
Kevin Lossner wrote:
Of course, that statement may not be much comfort to someone lacking the cash cushions recommended for a freelancer (me, for instance), but it's still better than irrationality.
I am a bit confused here, because your phrasing was not very clear to me:
1) Do you mean other people were not methodical enough to enjoy the cash cushion that you have, and you wish to remind everybody about that?
2) Do you mean you don't have the cash cushion either? But you wrote earlier that you were making so much money that you don't find the time to write your invoices.
Could you be more precise about that please? In normal language also, please.
| | | | | Define 'normal' | Feb 23, 2009 |
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
In normal language also, please.
With all due respect, Kevin's use of language is perfectly 'normal'. In fact, I'd go as far as to say it should be perfectly understandable to anyone with a proper command of English, especially someone translating from it.
If you have a problem understanding it - or perhaps, more specifically, the dry humour he often injects into his postings - perhaps the problem actually lies elsewhere.
Now, can we please get back on topic?
In order to answer the original question, I am not yet experiencing any drop in demand for Dutch to English or Portuguese to English translations. In fact, demand for the latter is stronger than usual. This may be because I specialise almost exclusively in legal work, which in most cases simply has to be done.
I have earned slightly less than I usually would this month because I took time off to move, but otherwise everything is looking normal here, with a strong surge towards month end. Touch wood it stays that way.
| | | | Kevin Lossner
Portugal
Local time: 07:18
Deutsch > Englisch
+ ...
| Shelter from the storm | Feb 23, 2009 |
Lawyer-Linguist wrote:
Arnaud HERVE wrote:
In normal language also, please.
If you have a problem understanding it - or perhaps, more specifically, the dry humour he often injects into his postings - perhaps the problem actually lies elsewhere.
I had a very interesting conversation with a new direct client this morning. Very, very interesting, because it confirmed a few gut feelings I've had about some things which may be happening in the market right now. I think I've floated my theory once or twice and a few others have as well, either independently or in agreement, but I didn't have any actual evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, just a basic marketing instinct, and if one sips the marketing Kool Aid too long, sometimes reality can be a bit distorted.
Anyway, this guy sent me an inquiry this morning that I barely had time to deal with, but I copied and pasted a description of my standard workflow and added a few notes about why my partner was well-suited to this particular job (having to do with rehabilitation, closely related to her occupational therapy studies). Because, unlike some German colleagues who live in desperate fear that a client might actually want to call them to discuss business, I include my telephone number on my e-mail signature, the fellow called up an hour later to discuss the nuts and bolts of a possible project. The details are boring, but what I found interesting was his statement that, in view of the bad economy, his client cannot afford to make things worse by bad translation that is unprofessionally planned and executed. Saving money here would be tantamount to swallowing a cyanide capsule. Well, well.
So while some companies may be cutting costs and cutting throats, it seems that some of the smart money may be moving toward the high end. Toward translators who understand what they want to say. This most emphatically does not mean that a translator who is losing business or never had it in the first place is a bad translator. There can be many reasons for that, some a matter of "fault", many not. But I do take the client's comments as clear evidence that if the translator is plugged into the higher strata of the market, things might remain stable or actually get better while lesser souls like me are munching our mutts. In fact, when I look at some of the people I know for a fact are much better at this game than I am and I see that they are as busy as ever or more so, it would seem to coincide with what today's customer had to say.
**************
Edited by popular request
[Edited at 2009-02-23 18:53 GMT]
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