| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: [1 2 3] > | ProZ social dumping and pricing Initiator des Themas: jeffrey engberg
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jeffrey engberg 
Norwegen
Local time: 01:57
Mitglied (2006)
Norwegisch > Englisch
+ ...
Translators, like any profession, work towards fair pay.
My question is, why does ProZ allow agencies to post jobs that are far far below standard fees?
ProZ is effectively supporting social dumping, and hurting the profession, by allowing companies,
in my languages especially those in India, to offer jobs at fees that shame anyone living in a democratic company who has to pay taxes.
Why does ProZ promote social dumping?
There is no excuse.
... See more Translators, like any profession, work towards fair pay.
My question is, why does ProZ allow agencies to post jobs that are far far below standard fees?
ProZ is effectively supporting social dumping, and hurting the profession, by allowing companies,
in my languages especially those in India, to offer jobs at fees that shame anyone living in a democratic company who has to pay taxes.
Why does ProZ promote social dumping?
There is no excuse.
Site team response: There was a petition along these lines in 2010, and ProZ.com made changes accordingly. See: https://www.proz.com/about/ipetition ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Niederlande
Local time: 01:57
Mitglied (2006)
Englisch > Afrikaans
+ ...
| Instead of pointing out the problem, provide a solution | Sep 24, 2018 |
jeffrey engberg wrote:
My question is, why does ProZ allow agencies to post jobs that are far far below standard fees?
Because no viable solution has been found to combat it. Search the forum for the hundreds of previous discussions on this issue, and see if you can figure out a practical solution that would actually work and actually be fair to everyone.
ProZ is effectively supporting social dumping, and hurting the profession, by allowing companies, in my languages especially those in India, to offer jobs at fees that shame anyone living in a democratic company who has to pay taxes.
If you were a baker in Norway, would you believe that bread sellers in India are hurting the baking industry by asking such low prices for bread in in India? Think about it: if you were a baker in Norway, and you wanted to sell your bread in India, what would you have to do? The fact that the baker doesn't actually travel to India to sell his bread (he just sits at home in Norway at a computer with an internet connection) doesn't turn the Indian bread buyers in to Norwegian bread buyers.
[Edited at 2018-09-24 06:06 GMT]
| | | | jeffrey engberg
Norwegen
Local time: 01:57
Mitglied (2006)
Norwegisch > Englisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | set dignified minimum rates, and change policy | Sep 24, 2018 |
The answer is simple. set minimum rates.
I think there are questions of ethics involved here,
| | | | Samuel Murray
Niederlande
Local time: 01:57
Mitglied (2006)
Englisch > Afrikaans
+ ...
jeffrey engberg wrote:
The answer is simple: set minimum rates.
Aren't you concerned that if ProZ.com were to set minimum rates, some sections of the industry might come to see that rate as a recommended rate instead of a minimum rate?
That said, we look forward to your next post, in which you explain how to determine the minimum rate. For example, one could take the country's minimum wage, assume 1000 words per day, and do the math. If we did that, then the minimum rate that Indian clients would have to pay would be USD 0.003 per word. Obviously very silly. Using the same calculation, the minimum rate that Norwegian clients would have to pay would be USD 0.17 per word. Some might call that silly as well.
But you might say: if the translator is in Norway, he should be offered Norwegian rates. If so, how would one implement this in practice? It is impossible for ProZ.com (or the agency) to determine at the time that the job is posted from which countries the bidding translators will be.
Should ProZ.com simply hide all jobs from Norwegian translators where the offered rate is below the Norwegian minimum? Or how about this: should ProZ.com simply disallow Norwegian translators from bidding lower than the Norwegian minimum?
[Edited at 2018-09-24 06:38 GMT]
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mariealpilles
Frankreich
Local time: 01:57
Englisch > Französisch
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| Social dumping | Sep 24, 2018 |
I agree that it seems a bit difficult to decide and implement. However, it could be in the Policy of ProZ to refuse to publish any offer below at least $0.07/source word. That might deter those who want to offer cheap rates - and who are not all based in India! - from publishing.
On the other hand, those offering such very low rates are obviously not looking for quality. So maybe there is another solution. Start insisting that agencies publish under one or the other headlines: quality wor... See more I agree that it seems a bit difficult to decide and implement. However, it could be in the Policy of ProZ to refuse to publish any offer below at least $0.07/source word. That might deter those who want to offer cheap rates - and who are not all based in India! - from publishing.
On the other hand, those offering such very low rates are obviously not looking for quality. So maybe there is another solution. Start insisting that agencies publish under one or the other headlines: quality work, quality rates and qulity insignificant, rates below standard. Then it is up to the translator to not even read one or the other.
It is simply not tolerable to have some agencies - and I have one US company in mind more specifically - that dare offer rates which are approximately half the current low rate (for interpretation for instance) and have such demands that are excessive. That should not be allowed - maximum profit for the agencies and minimum result for the service provider; slavery was abolished ages ago. A respectable professional site should have no second thoughts about raising its policy to decency towards the service provider as well as good agencies. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Matthias Brombach
Deutschland
Local time: 01:57
Mitglied (2007)
Niederländisch > Deutsch
+ ...
Shut down proZ as it is, re-open proz under the name "Premium ProZ", where only premium paid jobs are admitted, set a higher price as a treshold and wait, how fast most of the earlier members (freelancers and outsourcers) move to look for or to establish a different place to sell/offer services beyond those "premium" prices. Question: Would that diversification be a desirable solution?Will then no one nowhere dare to offer rock bottom prices? And won´t the remaining "premium outsourcers" look a... See more Shut down proZ as it is, re-open proz under the name "Premium ProZ", where only premium paid jobs are admitted, set a higher price as a treshold and wait, how fast most of the earlier members (freelancers and outsourcers) move to look for or to establish a different place to sell/offer services beyond those "premium" prices. Question: Would that diversification be a desirable solution?Will then no one nowhere dare to offer rock bottom prices? And won´t the remaining "premium outsourcers" look after the cheaper ones anyway, but only at different places?
[Bearbeitet am 2018-09-24 07:13 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mirko Mainardi
Italien
Local time: 01:57
Mitglied
Englisch > Italienisch
Samuel Murray wrote:
Because no viable solution has been found to combat it. Search the forum for the hundreds of previous discussions on this issue, and see if you can figure out a practical solution that would actually work and actually be fair to everyone.
"Viable" solutions have been proposed, but just not accepted by proz, as that would likely reduce their client base (and revenue), while they've been obviously working hard to maximize that, at all costs.
If you were a baker in Norway, would you believe that bread sellers in India are hurting the baking industry by asking such low prices for bread in in India? Think about it: if you were a baker in Norway, and you wanted to sell your bread in India, what would you have to do? The fact that the baker doesn't actually travel to India to sell his bread (he just sits at home in Norway at a computer with an internet connection) doesn't turn the Indian bread buyers in to Norwegian bread buyers.
Not sure why you like "Indian bread sellers" so much, but unfortunately yours is a bad case of strawman, as we all know that what Eastern agencies do in most cases is just price dumping, by buying services from Western service providers (when end-clients are particularly "lucky") and reselling them to Western clients. Besides, more in general, someone who buys translation services into a Western language is obviously going to use them to operate in those markets, which command higher prices. In other words, I very much doubt that a translation into Norwegian would be used within the Indian market...
And BTW, this is another topic that has been discussed in "hundreds of previous discussions", and yet, someone somewhere always pops up with some untenable analogy like yours...
| | | | | Difference and logic | Sep 24, 2018 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
If you were a baker in Norway, would you believe that bread sellers in India are hurting the baking industry by asking such low prices for bread in in India? Think about it: if you were a baker in Norway, and you wanted to sell your bread in India, what would you have to do? The fact that the baker doesn't actually travel to India to sell his bread (he just sits at home in Norway at a computer with an internet connection) doesn't turn the Indian bread buyers in to Norwegian bread buyers.
[Edited at 2018-09-24 06:06 GMT]
There is a huge difference. Bread is not ordered and bought via the internet from thousands of miles.
We work via the internet and our clients receive their orders via the internet.
If you move to India now and you start to work there as a freelance translator, would you adopt the translation rates that are normal within India? If the answer is yes, my next questions will be:
Did your translation quality change in a negative way?
And if you had to move back to the Netherlands, what would you say to your clients? Hey, I'm back and pay me decent rates that are acceptable in the Netherlands. From 0.03 Euro to 0.13 Euro/word?
The logic says that your product (intellectual product): your translation and the quality behind, will be the same no matter which country you are working from.
[Edited at 2018-09-24 08:06 GMT]
[Edited at 2018-09-24 08:15 GMT]
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Samuel Murray wrote:
If you were a baker in Norway, would you believe that bread sellers in India are hurting the baking industry by asking such low prices for bread in in India? Think about it: if you were a baker in Norway, and you wanted to sell your bread in India, what would you have to do? The fact that the baker doesn't actually travel to India to sell his bread (he just sits at home in Norway at a computer with an internet connection) doesn't turn the Indian bread buyers in to Norwegian bread buyers.
[Edited at 2018-09-24 06:06 GMT]
+ 1
Does proz.com offer different subscription prices based on where translators or outsourcers/end clients are living?
| | | | | Food for thought | Sep 24, 2018 |
Who is more at fault an Indian or a Chinese agency that pays far below standard fees or those colleagues of us from all over the world who accept working under those conditions (to my greatest surprise, I have learned recently that several Portuguese translators are happy to do it)?
| | | | Mirko Mainardi
Italien
Local time: 01:57
Mitglied
Englisch > Italienisch
| Good question | Sep 24, 2018 |
Teresa Borges wrote:
Who is more at fault an Indian or a Chinese agency that pays far below standard fees or those colleagues of us from all over the world who accept working under those conditions (to my greatest surprise, I have learned recently that several Portuguese translators are happy to do it)?
In general terms: if someone exploits someone else, who is to blame, the exploiter or the exploited?
| | | | | Recent job offer in ProZ | Sep 24, 2018 |
Teresa Borges wrote:
Who is more at fault an Indian or a Chinese agency that pays far below standard fees or those colleagues of us from all over the world who accept working under those conditions (to my greatest surprise, I have learned recently that several Portuguese translators are happy to do it)?
41.000 words within 2 weeks, budget 1.800 Euro, answers received so far: 14. (I hope sincerely not everyone that answered is willing to do the job on these conditions!)
The agency is neither Indian nor Chinese, but European (Italian).
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Samuel Murray wrote:
Aren't you concerned that if ProZ.com were to set minimum rates, some sections of the industry might come to see that rate as a recommended rate instead of a minimum rate?
This is one of the many valid points that have been brought up over and over and over and over and over and over again in discussions about rates. But the problem is not really that these agencies exist - there are low-paying cowboys in every industry. For some people, two cents a word lets them make the living they want to, and this situation is not going to change. You may not agree with it (I certainly don't), but it isn't going to go away.
I propose two solutions. One - move to La La Land (I hear the food is very good) or Utopia (they pay all translators thirty cents a word, regardless of geographical location, specialist field or experience).
Two - start swimming in different waters. Specialise, and find people willing to pay your rate. You will find them. Because there is no one translation market, as many seem to think - there are those who recognise quality and are willing to pay for it.
| | | | | Please don't call me Einstein | Sep 24, 2018 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
jeffrey engberg wrote:
My question is, why does ProZ allow agencies to post jobs that are far far below standard fees?
Because no viable solution has been found to combat it.
The solution is very simple.
First, a few points to be considered:
1. Another translation job portal was fraught with bottom feeders, offering small fractions of a US cent per word. They implemented a strict rule, that no job offering less than EUR 0;03 per word would get published. What happened? Nowadays, with extremely rare exceptions, ALL jobs there offer EUR 0.03 per word. After the first contact, the true bottom feeders negotiate it further down, with hefty fuzzy match discounts, abusively long payment terms, etc.
Conclusion: Setting a minimum rate on a translation job portal does NOT work.
2. Proz tries to hold itself blameless for downward spiraling translation rates worldwide, under the allegation that they merely "publish" the job offers, Proz doesn't "make" such offers. However Proz DOES vet all job offers before publishing, to ensure that they comply to certain standards.
3. I can't find ANY other services providing industry, except translation, where clients are empowered to set the price. I'd have a host of examples, will stick to just one: Can you imagine a Beverly Hills mansion with a sign hanging outside, "We pay $5 for painting this house. Apply within."? I can't.
The simple solution - since Proz vets all of them - is to strictly forbid mentioning any rates and payment terms/ methods on job posts under penalty of not getting them published. This will allow outsourcers to feel the market, and make an educated choice, like ANYONE does, while shopping for anything other than translation.
How it works now
Translation agency posts a job on Proz: 9,000 words, English to Norwegian, on breakthrough technology in surgery, highly technical medicine, we pay USD 0.03/word in 60 days after month end.
I can't imagine what kind of bids they get, but several dozen of them.
How it should work
Translation agency posts a job on Proz: 9,000 words, English to Norwegian, on breakthrough technology in surgery, highly technical medicine.
They get the same number of bids, the extreme cases being:
a) USD 0.01/word, payment in 60 days - translator located in Delhi, sophomore at the local Faculty of Arts.
b) USD 0.18/word, payment in 7 days - Norwegian translator located in Oslo, retired M.D., was a visiting professor at medical schools in both US and UK.
Between (a) and (b), the outsourcer has many options to choose from, like in ANY other trade.
On a final thought, if this were successfully implemented and enforced, I'd reconsider my decision of having downgraded from a Proz paid membership to free user status, made a couple of years ago.
If they also turned OFF what seems to be the default setting on all job posts, "MUST have TRADOS" (the only CAT tool whose name gets written with all caps here), it would be quite likely that I'd resume my full membership on Proz.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spanien
Local time: 00:57
Mitglied (2007)
Englisch
+ ...
| How it works now is how it should work | Sep 24, 2018 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
How it works now
Translation agency posts a job on Proz: 9,000 words, English to Norwegian, on breakthrough technology in surgery, highly technical medicine, we pay USD 0.03/word in 60 days after month end.
I can't imagine what kind of bids they get, but several dozen of them.
But that post isn't allowable on ProZ.com, and hasn't been for some years. The posting rules specifically forbid any specific rate information from being stated in the text. The only place that a budget can be given is in the blue budget box. I'm not sure everyone can see that - maybe only paying members can? And we only see it if we've asked to see it - it can be hidden. It also clearly includes the information that you're free to quote whatever you like because you aren't bound by their budget.
Obviously some posters either don't read the rules or simply break them. That's why there's a special clickable link to report specific rate information. I've used it many times and the job has almost always been removed within minutes.
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