| Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3] > | Reduction based on mistakes: is it fair? Initiator des Themas: andorra-trans
|
|---|
Zamira B. 
Vereinigtes Königreich
Local time: 12:06
Mitglied (2006)
Englisch > Russisch
+ ...
Macià Falgàs i Planas wrote:
Now she is telling me that my translation has some mistakes, so she will be forced to apply a reduction of the total amount. For what she said, I think this reduction will be more than 40€.
I have never had such experience so far (touch wood!) but from what I read on Proz the normal practice is to ask your client to send you a proofread version with the corrections shown. You then would have to accept or decline them and if you do decline then you explain why.
Or I would think at least an agency describes what mistakes you made and you fix the mistakes at no charge for them.
Regarding the terms you were unsure about, did you ask the agency for clarifications? Did they ask the end-cleint for clarifications? It's their job and they get paid for it.
If they don't justify their claims, you can ignore the claims and demand full payment. If they don't pay you in full and you believe you did a good job, I would not hesitate to leave a glowing 1 or 2 on their BlueBoard page.
[Edited at 2008-04-09 12:22]
| | | | | Agree - you have a right to see the alleged mistakes | Apr 9, 2008 |
alessandra bocco wrote:
I agree with the previous posts, but I think you should ask the client to see the mistakes in your translation...So try to know what really happened to your translation!
You shouldn't have to just take someone's word that they are mistakes.
Not sure from what you've posted if this has been done already, but you should be sent the document with the mistakes indicated, and should have a chance to state your case if you feel they are not mistakes.
| | | | andorra-trans
Portugal
Local time: 12:06
Englisch > Katalanisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | I did produce the highest quality | Apr 9, 2008 |
Claudia Digel wrote:
I fully agree with Vladimir. If you accept a job at a given rate, you need to produce the highest quality possible, no matter how low the actual rate is.
Not to be misunderstood, I did produce the highest quality. I worked during these whole 10 days, and I consulted specialists and similar catalogs to confirm all my translations, and I proofread my translation twice.
| | | | andorra-trans
Portugal
Local time: 12:06
Englisch > Katalanisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | They won't tell me which mistakes there were | Apr 9, 2008 |
Zamira wrote:
I have never had such experience so far (touch wood!) but from what I read on Proz the normal practice is to ask your client to send you a proofread version with the corrections shown. You then would have to accept or decline them and if you do decline then you explain why.
If they don't justify their claims, you can ignore the claims and demand full payment. If they don't pay you in full and you believe you did a good job, I would not hesitate to leave a glowing 1 or 2 on their BlueBoard page.
[Edited at 2008-04-09 12:22]
I asked for what mistakes I made, and they would not tell me. They said they would send me the proofread version, but they warned me that no highlighting of what was proofread would be made (not even "Track Changes"). They said it should be me comparing the two versions.
They actually support this reduction without telling me exactly which mistakes I made.
| | |
|
|
|
andorra-trans
Portugal
Local time: 12:06
Englisch > Katalanisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | I will not accept any rate if it doesn't allow me to provide the highest quality | Apr 9, 2008 |
Vladimir Pochinov wrote:
However, I don't think you can assume that if you are paid less you are entitled to be less careful and produce more mistakes, and even drop the self-proofreading stage completely. This is very likely to result in problems with clients.
Yes, this has actually taught me a lesson, and I will not accept any more jobs from any client if their rate doesn't allow me to offer the highest quality.
I think this experience opens a new different time for my career.
| | | | | Discounts are a fact of life | Apr 9, 2008 |
Hi,
There is nothing wrong with the agency asking for a discount if your translation was indeed of poor quality -the reason why they might have to resort to this is not because they necessarily want to "punish" you, but because they will probably have to find someone to re-work the translation before sending it to the end client -and if they work against a budget they have to take money from somewhere in order to allocate it somewhere else -this is the logic behind discounts for po... See more Hi,
There is nothing wrong with the agency asking for a discount if your translation was indeed of poor quality -the reason why they might have to resort to this is not because they necessarily want to "punish" you, but because they will probably have to find someone to re-work the translation before sending it to the end client -and if they work against a budget they have to take money from somewhere in order to allocate it somewhere else -this is the logic behind discounts for poor quality translations.
And no matter how low a rate agencies apply they will always expect high quality translations!
Because you were in the position to refuse the job if you found the rate unfair, or ask for a surcharge based on the fact that the text was highly technical or the deadline too tight. But you didn't, so now you have to deal with their complaints in a professional manner -you have to ask for a detailed feedback on what was wrong with your translation before agreeing to give them a discount.
And if you honestly consider they were right, I advise you to offer them the discount they ask!
Good luck!
Carmen ▲ Collapse
| | | |
Let's not pretend here that the client wasn't fully aware of the fact that her rate might not include some extensive review by another expert in the field; this is not trying to imply that the translator didn't do the best job possible, but in my opinion, such a listing probably needed to be run through a couple of extra steps after the translation was completed. This should have been up to the agency, in my opinion, and should have been made clear to the end client, since the translator cannot ... See more Let's not pretend here that the client wasn't fully aware of the fact that her rate might not include some extensive review by another expert in the field; this is not trying to imply that the translator didn't do the best job possible, but in my opinion, such a listing probably needed to be run through a couple of extra steps after the translation was completed. This should have been up to the agency, in my opinion, and should have been made clear to the end client, since the translator cannot possibly be expected to know every term and/or be able to research each term with 100% certainty. At a minimum, this should have included a step involving the translator, an editor and the end client to hash out any questions/unclear terminology. None of that should have been subject to a "reduction", since it would be a quality check. The only time any reduction would be in order is in the event there is ample evidence that the translator did a poor job overall. It's the agency's job to educate their client about the steps involved in a top-notch final product and then let the client decide if that's what they want and if they are prepared to spend the money. After all, when you want a cup of coffee, you can choose to go to a place that offers a "bottomless" cup of coffee for a low price. The coffee may taste decent, deliver the caffeine you need and the refills will keep on coming. However, you can't expect the coffee to be the same quality as what you'd get at Starbucks. I think that as consumers, we generally understand that. We don't necessarily think of the other coffee as "poor quality", just not as good as the Starbucks coffee would be, because there were additional steps involved in producing the Starbucks coffee, upping the final
cost.
I don't think that the translator has to bear any blame here, other than accepting a job that was priced insultingly low. The agency clearly failed in their responsibility to the client; they were fully aware (or should have been fully aware) that they were skipping steps on their end!
[Edited at 2008-04-09 15:53] ▲ Collapse
| | | | andorra-trans
Portugal
Local time: 12:06
Englisch > Katalanisch
+ ...
THEMENSTARTER | Poor translation | Apr 9, 2008 |
Maria-Carmen wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the agency asking for a discount if your translation was indeed of poor quality -the reason why they might have to resort to this is not because they necessarily want to "punish" you, but because they will probably have to find someone to re-work the translation before sending it to the end client -and if they work against a budget they have to take money from somewhere in order to allocate it somewhere else -this is the logic behind discounts for poor quality translations.
(...)
But you didn't, so now you have to deal with their complaints in a professional manner -you have to ask for a detailed feedback on what was wrong with your translation before agreeing to give them a discount. (...)
From what point would you consider a translation to be a "poor-quality translation"? (in a 16,500-words job like mine)
Do you think they must tell me exactly which errors I made? (they said they would only send me the final document with nothing highlighted, thus, I'll have to compare myself)
| | |
|
|
|
| I fully agree!!! | Apr 9, 2008 |
[quote]Vladimir Pochinov wrote:
Whatever the price, the job should be of the highest quality possible.
-----------------
If you are a good translator, you should ALWAYS do a good job, if you are being paid thousands or peanuts. Many times I have translated CVs of friends to whom I don't charge anything and I take those documents as if they were from any other important client. That is, well done, proofread and trying to avoid mistakes. It's not that because I don't get paid, I will just do any mess possible. No! A doctor has to operate an XX person with the same care that he would use to operate his own wife or children, and not with a bad quality service.
The difference with a TV varying in prices, as mentioned by the poster of the question (buying one for $30 or buying one for $200), and the service a human being can offer is that a TV set is simply an object which can be built of so many different materials. A person who has the appropriate professional studies must deliver the same kind of job to anyone.
| | | | Tatty
Local time: 13:06
Spanisch > Englisch
+ ...
| Take the unhighlighted document | Apr 9, 2008 |
Accept the document from them and compare it, you probably know your translation almost off by heart anyway, it won't take you long. Given all the research you did etc. you'll probably find that they aren't true mistakes, just synonymes, or words that are very close. You'll feel much better when you know. The agent may just be trying to get the work at an even lower rate.
| | | | Oleg Rudavin
Ukraine
Local time: 14:06
Mitglied (2003)
Englisch > Ukrainisch
+ ...
| Will the agency learn the lesson? | Apr 9, 2008 |
Hi Macià.
Claudia Digel put it just perfectly:
a) Don't undersell yourself. and
b) Don't accept any translation job that is not within your area of expertise.
These lessons might be worth the €40 that will be deducted from your invoice.
but I don't quite agree with Maria-Carmen who said:
There is nothing wrong with the agency asking for a discount if your translation was indeed of poor quality -the reason why they might have to resort to this is not because they necessarily want to "punish" you, but because they will probably have to find someone to re-work the translation before sending it to the end client -and if they work against a budget they have to take money from somewhere in order to allocate it somewhere else -this is the logic behind discounts for poor quality translations.
Speaking about "poor quality" of any job - the agency's job was to find and subcontract a translator capable to deliver the final product of acceptable quality. Obviously, the agency failed to do it. Nevertheless, the agency attempts to hedge against the loss by laying the additional cost burden (EUR 40 for correcting those 15 words? ) entirely on Macià's shoulders. Where's the logic here?
I repeat the question: will the agency learn the lesson? - It depends on Macià's actions. If she agrees to the discount, the lesson will say "I can always be the winning party by not paying / paying less to translators". If Macià insists on the initial amount, the lesson might be somewhat different.
Cheers,
Oleg
| | | | | The customer is NOT always right | Apr 10, 2008 |
I am truly amazed at some of the opinions given in this thread. It sounds like many of us still believe in the completely mad principle that dictates that the customer is always right. I've been around the block a few times and I am sad to report that the customer is far from being always right - especially when that customer is a kitchen table agency (thanks for the pretty descriptive term, Jeff ).
Cristina Heraud-van Tol wrote:
16,500 words in 10 days? That means that every day you had to translate 1650 which is pretty doable, in my opinion. My average is 2000 words, and I have a husband and child, and must do some household tasks at home. I believe you even had an extra day for a thorough check.
I guess translators are translators because they are not math specialists... In my book, a ten-day deadline is far from equalling ten days of work. Like most mammals, translators also need adequate sleep and time off. I take my two days off per week just like our in-house counterparts do, and I don't see how one's freelancer status justifies working for ten days straight. In the case of a translation with a ten-day deadline, I discount three days right from the start, which corresponds to my days off, which leaves me with seven days to translate those 16,500 words. So, right there, the daily output is already quite different - I would need to produce 2,357 words of quality translation per day if I want to deliver on time. Now, when you say you have an average daily output of 2,000 words, not only are you already too slow for this deadline/wordcount (unless you are willing to neglect your husband, child, friends, pastimes and household chores in order to put in some overtime, of course), but you also probably don't mean a daily output of quality, edited and proofread translation, as can be guessed from your suggestion that you would even have a spare day for proofing. I also can produce 2,000 words of translation per day, sometimes more, but that is only if I translate for eight hours straight, and without editing, proofreading, formatting, searching for terms, etc. If I add these items to my daily work, my workday looks much more like an eleven- or even twelve-hour long day - and I haven't taken a shower yet!
I think that 16K words in ten days is rather tight. My rule of thumb is to accept deadlines that allow to translate, edit and proofread 1,000 words per day. This will ensure that I deliver a quality translation on time, but also that in case another regular client has a job for me, I will be able to assist that client as well. I rest assured that translation agencies are aware that most of us have more than one client, and trust they understand that just like this particular client expects that I am available for them, my other clients have the right to have the same expectations (whatever makes most small agencies constantly believe that they are The Only Ones?). In this case, I would have asked for 16 days, or else...
Cristina Heraud-van Tol wrote:
You should have told the client that the text is highly technical and that she should increase the rate per word.
You are right - but I would have worded this differently. It is not up to the client to raise the rate - your client is not going to give you a raise, since s/he is not your employer. This should be clear to anybody who calls him/herself a freelancer. The translator raises his/her rate - and the agency can accept or decline. Period.
Cristina Heraud-van Tol wrote:
This is all because we deliver a service and always or at least, mostly, we must please the customer. If he/she sees mistakes and wants a discount, then he/she must be right.
If you wanted to fully please the customer, you would have to translate without ever going to sleep, taking care of your family or your household - and at no cost, to top it off. That is the only kind of translator that a kitchen table agency finds "pleasing". If I find that five years is too short a period for the heel to break off my shoe, I would be right to ask for a refund? I don't think so. I hope you are joking...
Maria-Carmen wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the agency asking for a discount if your translation was indeed of poor quality -the reason why they might have to resort to this is not because they necessarily want to "punish" you, but because they will probably have to find someone to re-work the translation before sending it to the end client -and if they work against a budget they have to take money from somewhere in order to allocate it somewhere else -this is the logic behind discounts for poor quality translations.
What makes you think the translation was of poor quality? Nobody even hinted at that. Fifteen words were not to the client's liking. Is that what you call a translation of poor quality? If you can honestly produce a translation of 16K words in which there are less than 15 words that are not quite right, then you must teach me. I'd love to be able to charge rates higher than what agencies charge...
The agency doesn't have to find someone to rework the translation. If they decide to do that, they are liable for their decision. The translator was not offered any alternative, so it is safe to assume that if such a decision was taken, it was done behind the translator's back, without the translator's consent and at the translator's expense. You honestly find that fair? The agency had the occasion to point out what is wrong with the file - they didn't take it. Not only that, but when asked, they refuse to tell the translator what exactly was wrong. Am I the only one who finds that this one is a stinker? Just how can the agency tell that there are 15 words that are wrong if they can't even tell the translator which ones they were? The agency is liable for its actions.
Also, what if the agency picks someone who charges as much for the editing/proofing as the translator charges for translation? It could happen, you know. And if it happened to you, would you accept to waive your entire payment for 15 measly words? My point is that again, if the agency turns around and hires an editor/proofreader without communicating with the translator, they are abusing the translator, because they are forcing the translator to pay for a service the translator did not negotiate. I have yet to see one agency e-mail with the editor/proofreader's invoice attached, to justify the reductions they imposed upon the translator. I wonder why...
Finally, I also believe that it was part of the agency's job (which their client pays them for) to have the translation done by someone who is not likely to make errors. The agency failed. How can you expect the translator to pay for the agency's failure?
Tatty wrote:
Accept the document from them and compare it, you probably know your translation almost off by heart anyway, it won't take you long.
You must be a lightning fast editor/proofreader. 16K words takes several hours to read, two 16K documents take double that time to read - but comparing two 16K-word documents, in all honesty, takes literally ages. However, if Macià has Word XP or a more recent version, she can use Word's merge feature to quickly produce a copy with tracked changes and see right away what was corrected - do ask for information on this if you need it, Macià.
Macià Falgàs i Planas wrote:
However, I think she should be tolerant and understand that for this rate, deadline and high-technical level, many more reductions to the already-reducted price should not be done.
I don't think so. You are only assuming. I will not jump on the wagon and repeat what was said before - I don't think I will offer the same quality at 12 cents as I offer at 20 cents. I will do my job as usual for the 12 cents job, but I will not make a TDB, will not search extensively for terms and will not make a detailed list of questions for the client. And the client knows this. The client doesn't assume, and neither do I - we both know this. We agreed upon it before I accepted the job. You should not assume that the fact that you charged a low rate means the client cannot expect quality. It is OK to offer lower quality at lower rates - but your client has to know this and agree to it before you accept the contract.
Remember, don't assume - when you do, you make an ASS out of U and ME.
Edit: I recommend you read my post about communicating clearly to your client what is included in the work you will do for them. This may be valuable information for you. If you put in writing the parameters of the job you will do before accepting to do it, you and your client will be on the same wavelength. Not only will this help you avoid situations like the one your are currently going through, it will also help your client understand what exactly they are paying for. This could arm you with great arguments regarding your rates.
http://www.proz.com/forum/translation_theory_and_practice/100898-do_you_find_that_the_documents_for_translation_are_getting_harder_all_the_time-822031.html#822031 (it's at the bottom of the page)
[Edited at 2008-04-10 03:28]
| | |
|
|
|
| No assssssumptions :) | Apr 10, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
I guess translators are translators because they are not math specialists... In my book, a ten-day deadline is far from equalling ten days of work... but you also probably don't mean a daily output of quality, edited and proofread translation...My rule of thumb is to accept deadlines that allow to translate, edit and proofread 1,000 words per day.
I think we need to remember here that everyone has their own translation pace, and that in particular, language pairs may require different working methods and planning.
Personally, when I have an ongoing project, my 8-9 hour work day includes 3,000-3,500 words, translated, researched, and edited/proofread.
Just yesterday I was asked by a good client to work on an urgent project (at a good rate) due Monday. I'll be working over the weekend, and averaging over 5,000 words per day. It's going to mean loooooong hours, but I've planned my time accordingly to do a good job. And I'll be paid what I think is a fair rate.
By contrast, the other week I was asked to help out on an urgent project that was not quite paying what I would call fair compensation for urgent work that included a holiday weekend.
I decided to work on the project, but accepted a word count that I knew I could spread out over a longer period, allowing me to get in those extra showers and a little more R&R.
| | | |
Bravo, Viktoria!
I also feel that there was a rush to judgment against the poor translator. Translating a list with approximately 16,500 terms, most likely without much context at all cannot be compared to translating a flowing text with the same word count. Any translator out there who tells me that he/she could do it much faster and without any disputed terminology, please teach me now!!!! I'm willing to learn from you, even though I've never had a dispute with an agency, but you ... See more Bravo, Viktoria!
I also feel that there was a rush to judgment against the poor translator. Translating a list with approximately 16,500 terms, most likely without much context at all cannot be compared to translating a flowing text with the same word count. Any translator out there who tells me that he/she could do it much faster and without any disputed terminology, please teach me now!!!! I'm willing to learn from you, even though I've never had a dispute with an agency, but you are clearly so much smarter than the rest of us!!!!
In my opinion, this is an agency that will be scrambling to find translators willing to work for it and, more importantly, willing to put in as much time and effort as Macià has, so over short or long, they'll find themselves out of business anyway. And Macià, fight for what is rightfully yours, full payment. The agency's refusal to share the information about the alleged errors with you already makes me think it's just a ploy to cut their pitiful pay even more. Don't give in, and I would certainly give them a piece of my mind about their conduct in all of this.
Best of luck to you! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael GREEN
Frankreich
Local time: 13:06
Englisch > Französisch
| Only if clearly specified in the contract | Apr 12, 2008 |
Reduction for mistakes ?
1. It should be agreed in the contract with the client, otherwise it is unacceptable (we all make mistakes)
2. In any event, the client MUST provide a list of the so-called "mistakes" so you can respond to it.
But, without wishing to be unfair to you, I wonder why you accepted such a big job at such low rates in the first place ?!
16500 words in 10 days at € 0,028 gives you just € 462 - can you live on € 230 / wk ?
I only... See more Reduction for mistakes ?
1. It should be agreed in the contract with the client, otherwise it is unacceptable (we all make mistakes)
2. In any event, the client MUST provide a list of the so-called "mistakes" so you can respond to it.
But, without wishing to be unfair to you, I wonder why you accepted such a big job at such low rates in the first place ?!
16500 words in 10 days at € 0,028 gives you just € 462 - can you live on € 230 / wk ?
I only accept jobs with low rates (but not that low !) when I have free time - I would never devote half a month's work to jobs that won't even pay for my coffee. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Vom Thema belegte Seiten: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Reduction based on mistakes: is it fair? | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
| | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
